<p>I feel a bit obnoxious posting so many threads, but you guys are just so informative and encouraging that I can't stop.</p>
<p>So, I just submitted my Early Decision application to Columbia. My question is a this. about the number people accepted who did not fall within the top 10%: As I calculate it, 74 non-decil-ers (?) were accepted into Columbia last year. For a variety of reasons, including grade inflation, my unwillingness to grade grub, procrastination, and my extremely difficult schedule (2nd hardest in the class), I'm just outside the top 10. My extremely generous friend said that those who get accepted outside of the 10% are "people like you with phenomenal test scores who are obviously brilliant." I wouldn't call myself brilliant, but my question is more fundamental. Am I correct in thinking that those 74 people were almost entirely athletes or legacies (I'm not)? </p>
<p>I have no expectation that I will get in; really, my question's more general. What demographic do you think the small group of people accepted who were not in the top 10% is composed of?</p>
<p>Axel,
If you want those questions answered go look up confidentialcoll,pwoods and denzera. All Columbia questions are answered on those threads. It may take you a few hours. Lol</p>
<p>i’m hurt stalkermama you did not include me - especially since i wrote a long post about this. </p>
<p>also know that at this point many schools do not rank. and as i’ve noted columbia having a high percentage of students in the top 10% is not because they seek out only students in the top 10%, but because the pool is so deep that they are able to select students and find the ones that they want the most that fit within the top 10%. </p>
<p>as for jersey’s claim about URM, for the most part this is wrong. for the most part i would say that columbia and schools like it select minorities that are the top of their school - especially if going to an underachieving school - for the dual reason that they tend to be the most impressive, but also because high testing, high grade URMs are easier bets than someone who does not do as well or who may cause concern. universities are defensive to an extent. </p>
<p>in the end i’d argue the real camps of students outside the top 10% are athletes - though rarely because the need to have a high academic index on a team probably means that they can’t take that C+ student without taking tons of A students - development cases, and the last grouping are the kids that they probably feel they want to take a chance on. a student that goes to a competitive school and thus there are no fears about their academic performance, but maybe are not the top. thus they are the students that columbia really doesn’t lose out selecting, but may find especially compelling. does that leave a lot of room for those students? no, but even 20-30 kids is a significant number of students that the university actively has chosen over hundreds of others that were within the top 10% of their school.</p>
<p>Admissionsgeek,
Of course! You are the best! I was just getting ready to put you in a league of your own.
You also have been a wealth of information here for all of us! Keep showing up here. We need you!</p>
<p>I see that my reputation precedes me. I hope you do check out my post to the Stuyvesant student worried that they’re not in the top 10%, and I want to provide some background info on myself and my school. I went to Regis High School, a top private school in Manhattan. The school doesn’t rank, but since I had a ~3.75 (unweighted) average, I think I was in the top 15-20% of a class of 120 students. I did pretty well on the SATs, scoring a 2310 when I took them last October. When I was accepted after applying ED, many of my classmates were very surprised. Most of those who in the top 10% ended up at Yale, Williams, or Amherst. Many of my classmates in the top 25% went to Cornell or Georgetown. I’m not saying this to brag, but just to give some context. When the admissions committee at Columbia saw that I was not in the top 10% of students, they also knew that I came from a very competitive high school.</p>
<p>Indeed, there are many students at Columbia from top high schools, both private and public. Brearley sent a lot of girls this year, and Stuy and Bronx Science (the specialized high schools in New York) always send a great deal of students to Columbia. There are also a lot of students from top schools in California which I’m less familiar with, like Harvard-Westlake. By no means do all students at Columbia come from elite prep schools, but a significant number do. So to answer your question, I’d imagine that a lot of the students outside of the top 10% are those who went to very competitive and rigorous high schools, where a student could be ranked in the top 20% who would be ranked in the top 5% at a typical high school.</p>
<p>I’m delighted that you find me to be such a helpful resource, but adgeek is the truly knowledgeable one. He helped me a lot when I had questions and concerns about Columbia last year, and he continues to help me now that I’m a student here. He has a great perspective on the benefits and uniqueness of the Columbia experience, and a deep understanding of the holistic admissions process. Definitely listen to him!</p>
<p>Im in the 13% percentile. But I believe it’ll be ok. They know the grade inflation and everything about the HS that you come from. And Im glad to say that my HS is one of the toughest in the US…in the top 70 schools according to US National news :)</p>
<p>thanks pwoods and admissionsgeek. i actually did read both of your posts after stalkermom recommended them, and i really appreciated your eloquence, encouragement and realism. thank you, again. you’re both very helpful and informative. </p>
<p>unfortunately, though, i don’t go to a top school at all. i go to a crappy public school in upstate new york, which makes it even more embarrassing that my rank is so (relatively) low. i don’t really have any excuses for it other than the rigorousness of my course load and grade inflation. and I know I could’ve worked harder. as i said, i don’t expect to get in, which is probably the best and most realistic approach, and will make it even more thrilling if by some miracle i get accepted.</p>
<p>Axel - well since i know a bit about the world you come from feel free to pm me.</p>
<p>but the point is that to be admitted to a school like columbia is hard, very hard. it doesn’t mean it is impossible, but knowing that ahead of the game is good. not going to columbia, of course, is not the end of the world.</p>
<p>i’m talking right now with a great friend of mine who transferred into columbia and i can’t imagine my life if he did not transfer in. i am also thinking about the folks in graduate school i have met that went to other great schools and had terrific educations. point is that life goes on. so if you wanna chat about regular decision schools to consider, or any subject, let me know. </p>
<p>the one thing about rank is that it sounds perhaps that you have an unweighted rank, and unweighted ranks are not taken as seriously as weighted ranks. so that might relieve some doubts. so long as teachers and counselors say you’re one of if not the smartest kid in the school, that can always overcome a uw rank that is not that nice. also a lot of nys schools do not do insane weighting to their ranks (when they do do a weighted rank), and your adcom will know that. so keep your chin up about things.</p>
<p>what if the class size is tiny? (around 85-90 kids) … how much importance is placed (holding all other factors constant) on the top 10% then? seeing as only 8-9 kids really fit within it… responses will be highly appreciated :)</p>
<p>i’m not sure what effect class size would have, if any. theoretically, varying class size is already accounted for in a system that uses percentages to evaluate and compare rank. of course, i’m in a similar situation regarding class size, so i would like to think that it makes some kind of a difference…</p>
<p>i think the strength or perceived strength of your school matters. the stronger the school the more they might be willing to dip further into the class. </p>
<p>ultimately the question is: are you really the best your hs has to offer? this would be based on your curriculum, grades, rank, letters of recommendation (how effusive they are), activities and impact, etc. this doesn’t mean you have to be the best, but someone that really has pushed her/himself as much as possible in his/her context. if you are further down in the class, but let’s suppose the valedictorian doesn’t apply, the question they might have to answer - could that top student (or students ranked higher than you) be more impressive than you? so the comparison might not be direct, but to some extent imagined. </p>
<p>why would this matter? - admissions really does have logic. if columbia admits someone lower in the class this year, but denies someone at the top of the class next year, would this be intelligible to the school and community? would they care? would it set up unrealistic expectations for students lower in the class that they would be admitted?</p>
<p>would it be correct to conclude from this logic that if two students from the same school apply, the higher ranked one will, almost invariably, beat out the lower ranked student? in my case, my friend is also applying ED: he has a higher rank, lower test scores and a somewhat less rigorous course load, but if columbia is so concerned with perceived competitiveness, it makes sense that they would accept the higher ranked student, in some ways regardless of other less concrete or easily compared factors.</p>
<p>someone asked me through a PM if Columbia would know how strong or weak your school is even if it is not located in a major well-known school, and how that may impact being the top student:</p>
<p>There are folks in Columbia’s office who have been at this for 20-30 years, and so the accumulated knowledge, the accumulated information, the fact that they track everything datawise means you are rest assured that they will know your school, they will know what is good at your school, what is bad, what are desired curriculums or not. it is only when you perhaps apply from abroad or a new school that they wont have that knowledge ready at hand. but if you’re studying from NJ they will know your school, the expectations placed upon you, and what is normal, without question.</p>
<p>it is also important to know that the stronger the hs the less important it is to be number 1 gpa wise. because more impressive candidates may have lower gpas, but more impressive profiles outside of the classroom and stronger praise from teachers. if columbia has faith that the school is a good factory of smart students they would be more willing to perhaps not admit the top student because the school would understand that in reality the lower student is more than impressive enough academically, while being superior in other aspects.</p>
<p>this also means that the less faith the office has in the school, the less likely they would be to take a chance on someone who is not at the top or near the top. (for reasons i stated in my previous post.)</p>
<p>How impressive would such a valedictorian be viewed upon by admissions officers? Could the title itself be considered a tipping point? I ask because I am in a similar circumstance but live in MA, a state with education levels similar to that of NJ. And how much do admissions officers compare the current applicant to past applicants from that school, both accepted and rejected?</p>
<p>i think you have to realize that columbia and schools of its kind see hundreds to thousands of valedictorians a year. the title itself is not significantly unique. it is like being part of NHS, though it means a lot in your hs community, it is not uncommon to find candidates with the title. </p>
<p>it is what comes with having the title that matters more - the reasons the student was given the title - their superior grades, etc.</p>
<p>of course columbia will compare you to previous candidates and to imagined future candidates. if you are the valedictorian because your school’s class is weaker this year, it may mean less than if you were number 3 and your class was stronger. perceptions in terms of strength of the year matter as well. </p>
<p>this ultimately is what makes it difficult for you as a student to guess what would happen with your application, you don’t know how counselors or teachers will talk about you, and you only partially know how other candidates (in your year and in previous years) have presented themselves.</p>
<p>is it an honor to be the valedictorian? yes. is it something that will help them say this is a strong student? yes. will it be the reason you are admitted? no.</p>
