<p>Soshi, I want to reiterate what has been said here: any animosity you are exposed to here exists purely in the small minds of those who have nothing better to do than post on these boards to belittle Barnard. This has absolutely NOT been a factor for my d. She has done quite well in all of her classes and recently received a scholarship for a summer lab fellowship that was pretty exclusive. She was told in her scholarship offer that over 600 (Columbia College and Barnard) students applied for this and 13 were chosen.</p>
<p>She was afraid, before entering Barnard, that she would be made to feel somehow inferior to Columbia students. Again, that is NOT the case! </p>
<p>This whole issue of these kids trolling around these boards bashing Barnard makes me angry only because wonderfully qualified kids like your d might think it's a bigger deal than it is and choose not to attend Barnard for that reason. I truly hope that does not happen to your d!</p>
<p>Barnard desperately want to be part of Columbia and are trying everything that they can to remove the word 'Barnard' from their record and include the word 'Columbia' as much as possible .</p>
<p>It seems to me what most Barnard students are doing is happily going to school and learning, while you're trying to make some sort of point Columbia doesn't even support, Poxpox.</p>
<p>Hmm, which one of you is the 'desperate' one?</p>
<p>Re #42: Keep reciting this to yourself as you pass the Barnard students all over your campus, in your classes, playing on your athletic teams, participating fully in your clubs, editing your student newspaper, and receiving their Columbia degrees. </p>
<p>If it makes you feel better about yourself.</p>
<p>BTw I'm done guys, back to hibernation; have fun.</p>
<p>
[quote]
" Nobody is denying that Barnard is part of Columbia, "</p>
<p>This is not correct. Barnard is independent school which is "affiliated' with Columbia U. It is NOT part of Columbia
...
Columbia U websites and CU students does not want Barnard to be part ....
...
Barnard desperately want to be part of Columbia and are trying everything ....
[/quote]
Monydad, this is an example of what I was referring to in my quote #32 above when I referred to posters who bash Barnard as being "very limited when it comes to written expression" and over-literal in their thinking. Obviously, the poster does not know the definition of the word "affiliate". Apparently the poster does not know the definition of the word "pox" either. </p>
<p>Obviously, that assertion is doubtful and demonstrates ignorance of the application and entrance requirements of GS. He would not be eligible to "transfer" from CC without first having enrolled there, and he would not be eligible to apply to GS as a new student if he had applied to CC. It is far more likely given the date on the post that the double-pox had been rejected from CC and was under the mistaken impression that GS had open enrollment similar to the Harvard Extension. </p>
<p>So basically you are dealing with a disgruntled student who probably has not been accepted anywhere - which is what I meant in my post #31 when referring to insecure malcontents who feel resentment or jealousy toward Barnard students. </p>
<p>So... ignore the troll and I'm sure he will go away. Our Barnard daughters do not have to worry about encountering him on campus; he is not enrolled.</p>
<p>hey, all, have a bit of sympathy for the kid...obviously english is not his first language....we're all misinformed to varying degrees....we're all in our own great struggle</p>
<p>momfromme, I think you would get better info starting a separate thread on the financial aid topic. Barnard promises to meet 100% need of all enrolled students other than internationals, and as far as I know include only Stafford loans on their packages -- so that maximum loan amount will correspond to the Stafford limits (i.e., $3500 for the first year, rising to $5500 at the end). Barnard's aid package was significantly better than the package my d. received from Chicago, the only other 100%-need private college which admitted her. I know from past posts to these boards that many other CC'ers have received packages from Barnard that were more generous than packages from similar colleges, but of course that may vary with individual circumstances.</p>
<p>It’s odd how, when one questions the relationship between Columbia and Barnard, Barnard parents and students become excessively defensive. Churchmusicmom and ahimsa have to reassure shoshi that “not all Columbia students” are critical of the association, and monydad as well as calmom and ahimsa (again – yawn) have to make personal attacks based on their own flawed imaginations. But few, if any of you appear willing to look at the issue dispassionately.
Raised is the issue of what is more or less academic alchemy. A student, invariably with decent, but not stellar, grades and scores applies to Barnard. No one is denying that it is a good school – but it is not in the same league as Columbia College. And then, surprise, they dash across the road to take Columbia courses – despite their alleged desire to attend an all-women’s college. What is more, they end up with a degree that is given by Columbia University (and Barnard students will invariably broadcast their association with Columbia before that of Barnard).<br>
I simply maintain that this is not fair, and that Columbia should look more closely at its association with Barnard. If Barnard students do, in fact, receive Columbia degrees – then integrate the schools along the same lines as Harvard’s merger with Radcliffe.<br>
If the relationship between Columbia and Barnard continues without change, prospective Columbia applicants should be informed of the “affiliation.” Perhaps Columbia should include Barnard students’ SAT results in its release of median SATs to such publications as US News and World Reports, and Princeton Review. And, of course, they should also make the appropriate changes to the stated gender ratio. What would such changes do to Columbia’s reputation and level of desirability, I wonder?<br>
Oh, and incidentally, Columbia students are, on the whole, polite, and they are not going to be overtly rude to Barnard students. But what are they really thinking? Do you know what they say beyond the hearing of Barnard students? Of course the boys are going to be happy there are more girls around – but are they valuing the Barnard students for their intellectual merits? And how would you feel, if the standards of admission to a country club, profession, or even an academic institution, were higher for you than for a bunch of other individuals you suddenly found on your golf course, or at your medical conference, or, god forbid, college? Let Barnard allow students from a less competitive institution to attend classes and gain Barnard/Columbia (w/e) degrees – and then let’s see monydad’s reaction!<br>
Lastly, I question the whole fantasy of Barnard being an “independent” “women’s college.” While its administration may be separate (and I am not terribly familiar with this aspect of my case), its student body is very much a Columbia satellite and customer. It is far more involved than, say, Wellesley is with MIT, or Smith and Holyoke are with UMass and/or Amherst. So why the need to pretend? Actually, why the need for a women’s college at all these days? It’s over 40 years since The Feminine Mystique; the Ivies have all gone co-ed, as have the US military academies, and countless other bastions of male power. Heck, Harvard and MIT even have female presidents! To stir things up a little more (I do love these debates), has attending a women’s college today become tantamount to those handicapped stickers one sees dangling in car windows?
(P.S. I also think it’s so weird/amusing that parents trawl this site – my parents make fun of ME spending time here!)</p>
<p>Cranberry, what is your motivation in spending time here? My daughter has never looked at this site. As a parent, I read it for information and find it, for the most part, helpful. I like hearing about other parents' and students' experiences. </p>
<p>I'm not going to debate this endlessly with you. I want you to think about one point: the supposed difference in "intellectual merit" between Barnard and Columbia students. Have you ever considered all the variables that go into creating a class? There are legacies, developmental admits, celebrities, URMs, athletes, etc. I'm not going to get into the relative strengths of one group vs. another but I think you've got to consider the fact that there are powerful considerations other than "intellectual merit" at work. And that's not even considering the differences between the various schools at Columbia or the differences in the senior class versus the freshman class. When you are talking about such slight differences in selectivity between the two schools and adding the other considerations that come into play, you are dealing with kids who are all but indistinguishable.</p>
<p>I don't mean to sound condescending but you would be wise to prepare yourself for some surprises as you move forward. When you get out into graduate school and the workforce, you're going to encounter superstars coming from very unlikely places. They will be as smart or smarter than you and every bit as motivated to succeed. Harping on nonexistent distinctions isn't going to serve you well. I sincerely wish you all the best in all your future endeavors.</p>
<p>"And then, surprise, they dash across the road to take Columbia courses ? despite their alleged desire to attend an all-women?s college."</p>
<p>I have yet to find any Barnard students in my two years at Barnard who decided to accept admission as a "back door" to Columbia. While it doesn't surprise me that this has been heard of, and was probably frequent several years ago, Barnard students really are proud that they go to Barnard. And unless you are a Barnard student on this campus every single day, who are you to say this is not the case? In two years, I have taken three classes at Columbia. One was a math class that wasn't offered at Barnard, one a history class, and one an english class. I've yet to meet a Barnard student who "dashes" to take all their classes at Columbia. I'd also like to say that I've never encountered any problem with Columbia students.</p>
<p>It shocks me that this discussion is even taking place, but it doesn't surprise me it's on the internet. Seriously, NO ONE cares on campus. If people had that much of a problem with it, Barnard would not have applicants begging for admission.</p>
<p>"Perhaps Columbia should include Barnard students? SAT results in its release of median SATs to such publications as US News and World Reports, and Princeton Review. And, of course, they should also make the appropriate changes to the stated gender ratio."</p>
<p>This would never happen as the two schools have completely separate admissions offices.</p>
<p>"I simply maintain that this is not fair, and that Columbia should look more closely at its association with Barnard."</p>
<p>I really do love it when people show up on these boards talking as if they know better than the Columbia and Barnard administration. Don't you think if they found the relationship between the two schools to be an out-of-place agreement, they would have ended it by now? Leave it to the people who know what they're talking about.</p>
<p>Just a comment on the Ivy league admissions process:
This year, 47% of the applicants Princeton accepted were URMs. A hefty portion of the remainder held at least one legacy.
That said, Rutgers University, a respectable but by no means cutthroat state school in NJ, rejected flat-out a number of applicants that were accepted to Princeton.
Similarly, Cornell accepted students that UMiami rejected.
If you want to evaluate the merit of every student accepted to Ivy League schools, just don't forget to take into account the non-merit based factors that come into play. Different schools look for different things. The school a student is accepted to by no means defines his or her abilities as a student or a human being, and thus it is ridiculous to rank students based on their colleges of choice.</p>
<p>My daughter has also reported that she was surprised by the large number of athletes she found at Columbia - and without getting into athlete-bashing, many of them are definitely not scholars. </p>
<p>And, for what its worth, the average GPA of admitted students at Barnard is higher than the average at Columbia. So your assumption that Columbia students have stellar grades while Barnard's do not is flawed -- Barnard's students have a better demonstrated record of performance coming in. </p>
<p>If prospective Columbia students are too lazy to bother clicking the link to "Academic Programs" at the uppermost left side of the home page of the web site .... that is their problem. Hopefully students who do such a poor job of researching the college they are applying to would be rejected. I can't imagine how any student would manage to apply to and get into Columbia without knowing about Barnard being there -- given the fact that Barnard has been formally affiliated with Columbia since 1891. </p>
<p>Just about every major college and university has exchange agreements with other schools allowing other students to study there -- the only ones that don't are in isolated geographical areas which simply make such an exchange impractical. Athletic recruiting also does bring in a large number of academically weaker students -- the AI of Ivy League athletes may be a full standard deviation lower than the mean for other admitted students -- see: <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=348471%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=348471</a> -</p>
<p>In any case, since Cranberry is a high school senior who has not yet been to college, he really doesn't have a clue as to what life is like at Columbia or how students there feel.</p>
<p>"In any case, since Cranberry is a high school senior who has not yet been to college, he really doesn't have a clue as to what life is like at Columbia or how students there feel."</p>
<p>haha, zing!</p>
<p>I don't think anyone here is being defensive. Every time someone counters a baseless argument made by one of these online Barnard bashers with anecdotes from their own experience, they're (of course!) being defensive, not "stating their point of view from the other side of the argument." On the other hand, coming here and starting the argument, and attacking students and a school with either factually false claims or imagined sentiments no one I know holds, is pretty actively offensive. </p>
<p>I once got into a similar argument with someone who was just flat out provably wrong, and their conclusion was, I quote, "the lady doth protest too much!" Of course I'm protesting, you're wrong. I wish Shakespeare had said something along the lines of "the gentleman doth proclaim too much!" so I could sound so clever and well-read.
(naturally, when I dug up the evidence proving them wrong, my guilt-proving protests at their incisive attack magically turned into reasonable debate between people with differing opinions.)</p>
<p>" Columbia students are, on the whole, polite, and they are not going to be overtly rude to Barnard students. But what are they really thinking? Do you know what they say beyond the hearing of Barnard students? "</p>
<p>CC/SEAS students pretend to be nice to Barnard students and will probably say nothing bad about Barnard in Classrooms or in the public places.</p>
<p>However, inside CC/SEAS dorms, Barnard students are never viewed as equal. CC/SEAS does not generally view Barnard as part of Columbia no matter what the barnard diploma says.</p>
<p>"Cranberry is a high school senior who has not yet been to college, he really doesn't have a clue as to what life is like at Columbia or how students there feel."</p>
<p>Sigh. Wrong on 4 out of 5 counts. Parents, if you are going to post on these student-centered boards, try to stick to the issues being raised. </p>
<p>And thanks, poxpox, for stating what many of us know to be true.</p>
<p>I'd point out that double-pox hasn't been to college yet, either. He claims to have been admitted to Columbia but planning to "transfer" to GS -- which is doubtful; cranberry claims to be planning to attend MIT.</p>
<p>Let's just drop it... cranberry and pox are obviously either trolling or just... not worth arguing with, due to an apparent lack of human dignity and reason. Coming to this board to antagonize only shows their need for attention on whatever level possible... and they're kind of getting it.</p>
<p>I would like to post this from someone called "Columbia2009" from the Columbia board. I think it expresses the real situation beautifully:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't read through this forum too often, but I'd like to stick up for CC and SEAS students, because we're not all elitist snobs who obsess about the distinction between Columbia and Barnard. On a practical level, it comes up only rarely (signing people into dorms, some course registration, etc.) and no one makes a big deal out of it. That being said, I think it's stupid to conflate the two as being the same because they offer different experiences; Barnard is defined, in large part, by its single-sex community and the support it offers women pursuing a liberal arts education. Columbia, meanwhile, is defined by the Core and the coed residential experience (while there is some overlap in Columbia/Barnard housing, it's still marginal). Neither experience is inherently better than the other, and people should choose what community they think is best, knowing that they will still be able to partially partake in the other. Personally, I'm proud to go to CC, but I don't harbor any ill will for Barnard--it's just another school across the street. I think people should be proud to attend whichever school they end up choosing rather than splitting hairs about the differences between CC/SEAS and Barnard. Like I said, no one cares, and people are generally very happy with the college they chose.