Undocumented Students Denied College Admissions: What Do You Think

Applying to College
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<p>Just came across this article and I was curious what other students think about this: </p>

<p>From article:
Admissions</a> Control (Update) :: Inside Higher Ed :: Higher Education's Source for News, and Views and Jobs</p>

<p>Last week, the North Carolina attorney general’s office released an advisory letter suggesting that, in light of federal law, the state’s community colleges should return to a former systemwide policy barring students who are undocumented immigrants from college-level courses. The letter said that the earlier ban “would more likely withstand judicial scrutiny” in the absence of either state legislation clarifying the ability of illegal immigrants to enroll or of guidance from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.</p>

<p>Such guidance arguably came Friday, albeit indirectly. In a statement prepared in response to a Raleigh News & Observer reporter’s question, the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement said, “It is left for the school to decide whether or not to enroll” illegal immigrants.</p>

<p>“The Department of Homeland Security does not require any school to determine a student’s status.”</p>

<p>UPDATE: Regardless, citing the advice of the state attorney general’s office, the North Carolina Community College System announced Tuesday that it would immediately cease admitting illegal immigrants to degree programs, reversing its current policy, issued in November, requiring that all 58 colleges admit undocumented students. The system said it has asked the state attorney general to seek clarification from the federal government.</p>

<p>I'm curious what other students think. Should undocumented students be allowed to enroll in our colleges and universities? Please comment.</p>

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<p>They should be able to enroll in private universities and colleges, but not enroll in state-funded colleges or receive federal aid. If they don't pay taxes, or abide by the laws of the country, why should they reap the benefits of citizenship?</p>

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<p>Yes, whether they be state-funded or not.</p>

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<p>
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If they don't pay taxes, or abide by the laws of the country, why should they reap the benefits of citizenship?

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<p>According to social contract theory (you know, the one pioneered by JOHN LOCKE) they are law-abiding citizens. They are just out of status -- a legal quibble from a libertarian point of view.</p>

<p>If my parents brought me across the border when I was like three -- and I had no say in it -- I'm somehow a downright evil social contract violator, eh?</p>

<p>Also, I don't pay taxes either! I didn't make enough!</p>

<p>Libertarians believe in an open-immigration policy. That lack of ability to secure documentation (simply because the government doesn't have a financial incentive to increase its bureaucratic efficiency_ should somehow be the main reason why millions of hardworking people WHO ARE AMERICANS AT HEART, from attaining legal recognition as a valid member of the social contract.</p>

<p>Why is it that whether I am law-abiding or not should be so determined by where I was born? If I seek to reside in the United States, and have come against all odds to come into it, isn't that a sign that I wish to be a member of that social contract and that society? For I have CHOSEN IT.</p>

<p>For those who are citizens by birth -- you didn't make that ****ing decision to come into this country! You were already born here! By luck! By chance! By fate! And yet supposedly your loyalty and willingness to be a fruitful member of the social contract should be somehow stronger than those who chose to come into this land? </p>

<p>Philosophically, from a social contract point of view, the prohibition of deserving undocumented students from being denied admission because of circumstances OUTSIDE OF THEIR CONTROL, has no justification.</p>

<p>To say otherwise would be to disagree with the principles the country was founded on -- a cliche, but true. What would John Locke say?</p>

<p>If Libertarianism was implemented and the bureaucracy overhauled to rapidly document all those who were willing to naturalise, the ability to make exceptions retained, these people wouldn't be undocumented. </p>

<p>Why doesn't the US have a more transparent and open immigration policy? Is it because xenophobic fears still remain in people who have no conception of social contract ideas? Please MLEVINE07, do away with your simplistic views on the obligations between individual and society.</p>

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<p>Undocumented immigrants should not have access to public colleges, but private colleges should be able to admit whoever they please. If someone has the resources to pay for an American college education (as I do not think illegal immigrants should be receiving federal aid), they have the resources to go back to their legal nation of residence and apply to American universities as international students.</p>

<p>As to your point, galoisien, if someone wants to live in America and contribute to American society, I do not see how legal, documented methods of nationalization are obstructing this desire to join society.</p>

<p>P.S. John Locke was not the only philosophe that the Founding Fathers listened to.</p>

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<p>Private schools as non-profit institutions do get tax breaks, which means as tax payers, we do indirectly support those private schools. I do not believe illegal immigrants should be allowed to go to schools in the US. For many immigrants (legal or illegal) to be able to go to schools in this country is one of the greatest reason to move here.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Undocumented immigrants should not have access to public colleges, but private colleges should be able to admit whoever they please. If someone has the resources to pay for an American college education (as I do not think illegal immigrants should be receiving federal aid), they have the resources to go back to their legal nation of residence and apply to American universities as international students.

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</p>

<p>And the moral basis for this argument is...?</p>

<p>Is it simply because they don't pay taxes? (But it's not like most undocumented immigrants have much to pay anyway?) That's very easily economically accounted for -- simply account for the spillover cost somewhere else. </p>

<p>Are born citizens somehow inherently more loyal or more law-abiding than non-documented ones? </p>

<p>What about those who have no legal recognition from any country?</p>

<p><a href="as%20I%20do%20not%20think%20illegal%20immigrants%20should%20be%20receiving%20federal%20aid">quote</a>

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<p>should should should. Again, what's the moral basis for this argument? </p>

<p>Federal aid is a "market correction" to account for the spillover benefits of education. Libertarians (both left-libertarians and right-libertarians) propose alternatives of course, but in the meantime we have no choice. Where does "should" come in, if the undocumented students aren't leaving?</p>

<p>
[quote]
I do not see how legal, documented methods of nationalization are obstructing this desire to join society.

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</p>

<p>Inefficient bureaucracy? The government doesn't have a financial incentive to be efficient, although the rest of society very much does have an economic incentive to see that immigration is efficient. </p>

<p>But then again you never tried to secure an immigration visa, did you?</p>

<p>
[quote]

P.S. John Locke was not the only philosophe that the Founding Fathers listened to.

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</p>

<p>He forms much of the moral basis for our Constitution.</p>

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<p>galoisen...your opinions on immigration are duly loud, considering the situation which you claim to be in. however, you are attending UVA, are you not? how can you say that "our American system" is so crazy/bad when you are fortunate enough to have that opportunity?</p>

<p>Illegal immigrants should become naturalized and pay taxes to attend public schools. All law-abiding citizens do so and it is unfair to make them pay for extra people.</p>

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<p>Not all illegal immigrants have the ability to simply "become naturalized." In fact, the only reason that illegal immigration exists is because the US government forbids certain people from becoming US citizens. However, such people can benefit equally (if not more) from a solid education as can an American citizen and should be allowed to obtain one. If the government is willing to come to its senses and grant them citizenship, then they can pay taxes to help provide such services to others; simply compounding the difficulties of undocumented immigrants in this country by shutting them out of state-funded schools is morally abhorrent.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Illegal immigrants should become naturalized and pay taxes to attend public schools. All law-abiding citizens do so and it is unfair to make them pay for extra people.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Many illegal immigrants do pay taxes, just not federal income tax -- which is likely to be a small portion of their contribution anyway. Their contribution to the economy is far larger. Their contribution to the social contract -- along with the spillover benefits they would produce if given a shot at college -- far outweighs any supposed free ride on taxes. </p>

<p>
[quote]
galoisen...your opinions on immigration are duly loud, considering the situation which you claim to be in. how can you say that "our American system" is so crazy/bad when you are fortunate enough to have that opportunity?

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</p>

<p>I am a debater. I am loud by nature. [Actually, I tend to be rather quiet and timid at most times, but I will speak up when the need warrants. Perhaps you know of other debaters with similar characters.] </p>

<p>Apparently I should be obedient and be blind to the plight of others who were not lucky as I was, because I was "fortunate". Harriet Tubman was lucky enough to escape slavery. Don't you think she was being ingrateful to the God of Fortune by slipping past the Mason-Dixon line again and again?</p>

<p>Perhaps you are not familiar with Malcolm X's description in his autobiography of those black professionals who were lucky enough to get a college degree (back in the 1930s to the 1960s), but then turned their back on others in their plight and acted condescending and haughty. That is not the person I intend to be. </p>

<p>Dumb and obedient I will not be. You Americans taught me to be sharp and critical, and I shall duly use that which I have learnt. :) I am not blind to the injustices of the system, and even if the immigation system were better than before (than say, the 1920s -- because we should all compare ourselves to the worst periods of our history to make ourselves feel better), why should I rest on my laurels? Why can I not pinpoint issues in which we can be better?</p>

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<p>Undocumented immigrants are, by the very fact that they are living in this country, breaking the law. It is illegal to be here without the proper documentation, so yes, natural-born citizens are inherently more law-abiding than undocumented citizens, if the natural-born citizens has no committed any other crimes. An inefficient bureaucracy is not really a justifiable excuse, by the way. "Bawwww, I'd have to wait a while to get a visa," evokes little sympathy. I planned far ahead when I needed a passport for international travel, and I had to wait months for my proper documentation. Why should undocumented immigrant be exempt from the basic expectation of patience? The inefficiency of the bureaucracy is a reality, and while we can take steps to change that, for now people are expected to simply be patient.</p>

<p>As for the topic: it is impractical to admit undocumented students anyway, because they are neither domestic nor international. Are they offered scholarships given to international students? Or money directed at domestic students? There are vague quotas for international students, so are these undocumented students included among them? I would argue yes, if they are to be considered at all.</p>

<p>Edit: galoisien, with two parents on the federal payroll, I would argue that paying <em>all</em> of one's required taxes is critical to upholding the social contract you hold so dear. Federal law (which, if we assume that the republic system that brought these laws into being is an adequate representation of democracy, is the law of the people) obligates us to pay taxes.</p>

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<p>As a practical matter, undocumented immigrants cannot legally get a job in the U.S. Even if they earn a degree, they will not be able to contribute to American society in a legal, productive way. After reaping the benefits of a free American education, oftentimes with free health care and job training, perhaps it is a good time for these immigrants to consider returning to the country of their citizenship, in order to make a positive impact there.</p>

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<p>^^^^^ That is a consequentialist argument, not a deontological one. (i.e. you are using a moral fallacy)</p>

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<p>What do you (collectively) think the countries of origin owe these young people?</p>

<p>Bay that was a great point and I realy like the way you phrased it.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
What do you (collectively) think the countries of origin owe these young people?

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</p>

<p>Nothing. They never grew up there (except in the earliest years of birth). They never participated in society there. Why should they be expected to return there? From a social contract view, de facto they are not members of that society. Only issues of the State and Sovereignty are preventing their legal recognition as members of US society -- from a libertarian view, ultimately superficial issues.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Bay that was a great point and I realy like the way you phrased it.

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</p>

<p>While I do like the language myself, I don't think it has argumentative merit -- it sounds great because it's more diplomatic about the truth?</p>

<p>Consequentialist arguments make no sense. If an investment in public education already has been made, if they have been de facto, integrated into the social fabric of American society, what the hell is with compelling them to return to a country they might not even remember?</p>

<p>The fact is, if one of them came here and ingratiated themselves among CC, or one of them were your best friends, you would think differently, because YOU would think of them as American all but in document.</p>

<p>Many employers actually turn a blind eye, and there is something to be said for civil disobedience.</p>

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<p>Galoisien "That lack of ability to secure documentation (simply because the government doesn't have a financial incentive" ) Do you mind explaining your statement here. Why do these immigrants have a "lack of ability to secure documentation". Given our country's propensity to legislate just about everything I imagine there is a process for obtaining documentation so why is this an excuse? I agree with most everyone here, if a person is living in this country and wants to benefit from access to services that are in any small way paid by the citizens, then they have an obligation to do the same in return. It has absolutely nothing with being a libertarian. Immigration has NEVER been easy in this country, but previous waves of immigrants have managed to navigate the path. If you don't believe that the European immigrants weren't "scrutinized" on Ellis Island before they were admitted, then you should read up on it. If you don't think they overcame language barriers and discrimination you talking out of the side of your mouth. It didn't matter whether you were educated in European colleges or peasants who came in steerage..they were all scrutinized. Why should this wave of immigrants feel more entitled than the last? And why should a first generation of immigrant child of college age continue to be "undocumented" or feel entitled in any way....I can't buy the argument no matter which direction I look at it.</p>

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<p>If US didn't offer som many benefits to illegal immigrants, there would be less reason for them to risk their life to come to this country. As a young mother living in NYC many years ago, I knew many illegal sitters that had free medical care, their babies received regular well baby care, free diapers and formulas. As a tax payer I was not eligible to any of those benefits. They told me it was worth their while to risk their life so their kids could have a better life. I laughted when one of them told me that she was upset to have to see a different doctors every time she went to the free clinic. She felt she had the right to have a dedicated doctor. i had to remind her that she was not paying for the service.</p>

<p>If our system is inefficient in admitting immigrants, that's what we should try to change. By offering free education and other benefits to illegal immigrants we are encouraging many of them to risk their life to come to this country. We have a large underground economy that is supported by illegal immigrants. Whatever benefit they are providing to certain group of people is being subsidized by most of us.</p>

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<p>"Nothing. They never grew up there (except in the earliest years of birth). They never participated in society there. "</p>

<p>You don't know that. It wasn't part of the information provided in my question.</p>

<p>"The fact is, if one of them came here and ingratiated themselves among CC, or one of them were your best friends, you would think differently, because YOU would think of them as American all but in document."</p>

<p>Didn't anyone teach you about assuming? Some illegal immigrants ARE among my best friends. I've worked closely among them for decades. I would venture to guess that I have a lot more firsthand knowledge than you do.</p>

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<p>"Civil disobedience" is sitting in jail because you refused to pay taxes that you believe are not going to just causes, or getting firehosed while participating in a nonviolent protest march. Being paid or using the resources provided (either directly or indirectly) by U.S. citizens for U.S. citizens is not civil disobedience, because you are not doing to face the consequences, but you are instead doing it despite the consequences. That is not taking a stand against the government; it is just breaking the law. That's like saying smoking pot while hidden in your own home is civil disobedience, which is absurd.</p>

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<p>"If US didn't offer som many benefits to illegal immigrants, there would be less reason for them to risk their life to come to this country</p>

<p>Risk and sometimes lose their lives. Often lose their families. I was stunned to learn how many illegal immigrants would very, very much prefer to be able to make a living in their home countries than to come here. Which is the reason for my question about what their nations owe them and their parents. Which is, I think, a lot. I'm also not in favor of ethnic cleansing.</p>