Undocumented Students Denied College Admissions: What Do You Think

Applying to College
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Undocumented immigrants are, by the very fact that they are living in this country, breaking the law.

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<p>A law, or The Law? A product of an unlibertarian process that should be reformed, or the paradigm and set of social principles each individual agrees to live by. As far as society is concerned, immigration laws concern how to get Here. The Law which governs the social contract outline each individual's obligations once one is already in society.</p>

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. An inefficient bureaucracy is not really a justifiable excuse, by the way. "Bawwww, I'd have to wait a while to get a visa," evokes little sympathy.

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<p>You had the advantage of being American. </p>

<p>I had the advantage of my father being in an existing American MNC. </p>

<p>A large portion, if not the majority, will never get their visas due to current <em>restrictions</em> on immigration.</p>

<p>Travel visas are different -- many get them with the intention of overstaying. And I sympathise with them -- if Libertarianism were to be implemented this problem would not be occurring, because the documentation process would be sped up, with most restrictions lifted, and so on.</p>

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Why should undocumented immigrant be exempt from the basic expectation of patience? The inefficiency of the bureaucracy is a reality, and while we can take steps to change that, for now people are expected to simply be patient.

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<p>If we enacted a libertarian framework to government, these inefficiencies in immigration would not exist, especially since the philosophy to immigration would be totally different.</p>

<p>In the meantime, one could simply practice civil disobedience. The NC authorities were fine before. Why change it?</p>

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Edit: galoisien, with two parents on the federal payroll, I would argue that paying <em>all</em> of one's required taxes is critical to upholding the social contract you hold so dear. Federal law (which, if we assume that the republic system that brought these laws into being is an adequate representation of democracy, is the law of the people) obligates us to pay taxes.

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<p>Huh? My single mother lived on welfare and child support for a while ... she paid no income taxes until 2007. </p>

<p>I bet I'm less American and should be deported, amirite? </p>

<p>It also happens that state colleges get funded by sales tax (which all people pay, regardless of status) and state tax, which AFAIK is often payable even if federal taxes are not. </p>

<p>Taxes are a small issue. Again, we can easily make up for the spillover cost by imposing a corrective cost on the education somewhere else. </p>

<p>The long-term solution is to have open (but documented) immigration. Most of these cases would disappear.</p>

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Being paid or using the resources provided (either directly or indirectly) by U.S. citizens for U.S. citizens is not civil disobedience,

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<p>Again, from an economics point of view, taxes represent a small portion of their overall contribution to the social contract! </p>

<p>As an internationalist, I don't respect formal nationality very much beyond the superficial. Common sense dictates that one is the citizen of the society one has consented to live in, in respect to the principles of the social contract. By the virtues of the social contract, restrictions on immigration should be minimal.</p>

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Given our country's propensity to legislate just about everything I imagine there is a process for obtaining documentation

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<p>Only xenophobia and a lack of libertarian common sense is preventing the United States from adopting an open immigration system. The process should be as simple as getting a driver's licence. A RealID card, if you want to go there.</p>

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if a person is living in this country and wants to benefit from access to services that are in any small way paid by the citizens, then they have an obligation to do the same in return.

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<p>Yes, the social contract.</p>

<p>Firstly, I have been pointing out time and time again that the contribution of each undocumented individual to the contract is far more than what they owe in taxes.</p>

<p>Again, while we wait for US immigration reform, the authorities in NC, if they so wished, could have imposed a (income-dependent) corrective cost if they felt it was necessary (or some other even more libertarian means, since manual market correction is not our style). Rather painless. </p>

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It has absolutely nothing with being a libertarian. Immigration has NEVER been easy in this country, but previous waves of immigrants have managed to navigate the path. If you don't believe that the European immigrants weren't "scrutinized" on Ellis Island before they were admitted, then you should read up on it. If you don't think they overcame language barriers and discrimination you talking out of the side of your mouth. It didn't matter whether you were educated in European colleges or peasants who came in steerage..they were all scrutinized. Why should this wave of immigrants feel more entitled than the last? And why should a first generation of immigrant child of college age continue to be "undocumented" or feel entitled in any way....I can't buy the argument no matter which direction I look at it.

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<p>Women considering careers often don't have it easy. They were discriminated in the 1950s, the 1900s, the 1850s, the 1500s ... BY GOLLY, LET US APPEAL TO TRADITION AND CONTINUE THE DISCRIMINATION!</p>

<p>The fact is, anyone who does not support open immigration is simply subscribing to protectionism and xenophobia -- both of which are economically unsound concepts. That is fundamental to why libertarians support open immigration.</p>

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<p>"single mother lived on welfare and child support for a while "</p>

<p>And where in the name of heaven is your gratitude for the taxpayers who supported you, educated you and are helping you to go to one of the top universities in the world?</p>

<p>"The long-term solution is to have open (but documented) immigration. Most of these cases would disappear."</p>

<p>more people on the public dole. A large percentage of the immigrants coming to America illegally are illiterate and don't ever contribute in any meaningful financial manner, and assimilation rates are declining markedly. Not a good thing for a nation, but you wouldn't care about that because this country that has been so kind to you hasn't earned your loyalty or gratitude.</p>

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<p>"As an internationalist"</p>

<p>You're not an internationalist, you're not a libertarian, you're a kid. And a moocher. I hope you save these threads or come back to them years hence because the adult you become will be mortified. Thank heavens for anonymity.</p>

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<p>I am so glad I am not a professor to have to read endless papers like this, or is this just a special case, if not, they really should get paid more.</p>

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If we enacted a libertarian framework to government

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Guess what: this isn't a libertarian government.</p>

<p>If you really have a problem with the way things are run here, either go somewhere else or do something to change it.</p>

<p>There are reasons why there is a limit on immigration (yes, xenophobia being an issue I think we really need to work on). The U.S. really doesn't need to be allowing a huge host of immigrants in who are just going to go on welfare and not contribute.</p>

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And where in the name of heaven is your gratitude for the taxpayers who supported you, educated you and are helping you to go to one of the top universities in the world?

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<p>I dunno, maybe it was that 500,000 dollar house the Court confiscated when our "father" decided to leech away our family's funds with legal fees by contesting my mother's custody?</p>

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more people on the public dole. A large percentage of the immigrants coming to America illegally are illiterate and don't ever contribute in any meaningful financial manner, and assimilation rates are declining markedly. Not a good thing for a nation, but you wouldn't care about that because this country that has been so kind to you hasn't earned your loyalty or gratitude.

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<p>That's what you think. </p>

<p>I have a love-hate relationship with this country, and for good reason. I am not blind to the benefits that have been afforded me. But I am not blind to the benefits that have not been afforded to my fellow brothers. And so why should I be content? Why should I remain obedient and dumb to a problem that merits more attention? On the contrary, my experiences with the system only make me more resolved to change it. </p>

<p>You think I am ingrateful. But I would gladly defend the country. I'd give my life for it, even though I've been on roller coaster terms with it. And that is love isn't it?</p>

<p>Better my love be like Cordelia's -- honest and frank -- than Goneril and Regan's false flattery.</p>

<p>A left libertarianism would provide a more systemic and better means of self-actualisation than straight handouts. </p>

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don't ever contribute in any meaningful financial manner

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<p>That's not what economics says.</p>

<p>So many people -- many of them surprisingly being educated -- subscribe to the fallacy that immigrants are somehow "stealing jobs" or leeching away from the economy, but those arguments don't make any economic sense.</p>

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Thank heavens for anonymity.

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<p>I'm not anonymous. :) </p>

<p>I have readily echoed these points before. </p>

<p>There were more efficient (left libertarian) means of social aid that I would have taken -- but alas, the State didn't offer them. So my family took what was offered. We couldn't be choosy. This is not already counting the nice donation of our house that we gave to society because of the injustices in the way the court handled my parents' divorce.</p>

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<p>Zoosermom....He/she just likes to run his mounth and listen to himself talk about something he doesn't know and doesn't understand... not even contextually.</p>

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<p>Maybe I'm being too abrasive -- but this is my frank opinion. After cultural alienation thrice experienced, perhaps I have too many bitter memories to expound rationally without "running my mouth off" as you say, and maybe I should take a break so my heart should stop pounding, and maybe it's true that I don't really understand?</p>

<p>But from a rights/contractual framework of society, denying those students admissions doesn't make sense, and neither does not having open immigration. (The sole law they're breaking is a law that is related to a process needing much overhaul.) </p>

<p>From an economics point of view it doesn't make sense either. These students are on the way to college -- they are <em>ready</em> to contribute back to society -- if only society would let them!</p>

<p>I really don't get this "ingrate" argument. If I were a born citizen making the same argument, would you be as critical? I'm going to a great school ... yes I'm elated, but at this moment I'm not there. Nothing has changed the quality of my life since I sent in that application. Wow, I feel like I'm climbing in society already. I look at fellow immigrant schoolmates who are in more serious documentation issues and think, "Wow! How lucky I am! I should shut up!"</p>

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<p>That whole "house" problem sounds like your parents' fault. It's not the state's problem that your parents can't solve a problem without lawyers they couldn't afford.</p>

<p>Edit:</p>

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Huh? My single mother lived on welfare and child support for a while ... she paid no income taxes until 2007.</p>

<p>I bet I'm less American and should be deported, amirite?

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I said all <em>required</em> taxes. Income tax is not <em>required</em> on specific types of income (welfare and child support among them), but undocumented workers who are getting paid under-the-table of an amount that would legally require income tax are breaking the law.</p>

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That whole "house" problem sounds like your parents' fault. It's not the state's problem that your parents can't solve a problem without lawyers they couldn't afford.

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<p>If you really want to know the whole story, we had no extended family here but we had some in Singapore. For reasons of passport renewal, complying with my country's laws of registration for future national service proceedings, getting a second opinion on my eye injury (medical costs are cheaper in Singapore) and to escape the whole fact that suddenly the whole school knew the specific details of my father (what he did I do not want to disclose), we went back to Singapore in a trip that was supposed to be short-term. </p>

<p>My father pounced -- he said that my mother had "kidnapped" me and my sister and in the legal drama that followed, he got the Court to sell the house for 85,000 dollars (it was 400-500k in net value). Well it ended up that neither of my parents would see the money anyway. Apparently I'm not legally entitled to know the rest of the details till I'm 18 (in like, five days) and regain legal access to the affadavit (otherwise apparently it would pose undue influence on my loyalties to my parents [i.e. to prevent me from learning about evidence that would pit me against my father more]. Fun stuff. </p>

<p>So that is a rough story on how we fell into our economic situation seven years ago. It's a story I don't tell to many people. My guidance counselor doesn't even know. Happy now?</p>

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<p>If you really want to know something, my mother was the first woman to build her own house in my county [if not the whole state]. Having previously worked for the Singaporean government in planning public housing, she came up with the architectural designs and she supervised the surveying herself [when she noticed her surveyor wasn't really surveying]. She didn't just carry over her techniques blind either -- when she came her she studied a great deal about American architecture and construction just to see what would be compatible for our house. </p>

<p>The men in the construction industry weren't used to dealing with women. Before they met her, their conception of the woman's role in housebuilding was one who picked out the bathroom tiling. :) </p>

<p>Our house was one of the rare houses in the area whose basement didn't flood whenever it rained because of the way she built the house into the hill so that the water had a place to drain (downwards and away ...) </p>

<p>Yea, we mooched alright. Some new family is enjoying the house she built because of our parasitic natures, damn right you are!</p>

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I bet I'm less American and should be deported, amirite?

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<p>Actually, if I recall correctly, you are not an American. I believe you told us that you hold a green card and chose not to apply for American citizenship. So if your green card expires and is not renewed, then yes, you should be deported.</p>

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<p>PR status never expires -- only the card does. It would suck if I had it expire in transit between airports, and it sucked for applying for financial aid, but deportation wasn't one of my worries.</p>

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<p>Believing a law is wrong does not give on the moral basis to disobey it. If one feels a law is unfair then one should speak up and fight to change it. Breaking a law and sneaking around, hoping no one finds out is immoral it benefits only the law breaker and worsens the situation for others who are suffering under the unjust law.
As the law-abiding child of two law-abiding, tax paying parents (on LI- which sent 8.1 billion dollars in state taxes to Albany and only saw 5.2 billion come back) who work hard for all of the things we have, I have little sympathy for those who sneak into this country illegally and then feel entiled to benefit from the taxes my parents and others like them pay.</p>

<p>btw, that house issue is still a family problem, and in no way relates to the discussion at hand.</p>

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Believing a law is wrong does not give on the moral basis to disobey it.

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<p>Actually ... there is a whole school of thought which argues to the contrary. (And it <em>was</em> the subject of an LD resolution.) </p>

<p>On a related note, a speech of which I feel is of some pertinence:</p>

<p>*
Good my lord,
You have begot me, bred me, lov'd me: I
Return those duties back as are right fit,
Obey you, love you, and most honour you.
Why have my sisters husbands if they say
They love you all? Haply, when I shall wed,
That lord whose hand must take my plight shall carry
Half my love with him, half my care and duty:
Sure I shall never marry like my sisters,
To love my father all.*</p>

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<p>To deny them the right to go to college is the most backwards and self-defeating thing we could do. </p>

<p>Politicians are all concerned about the gang violence they cause or their lack of productivity. So if thats the problem, why would we basically send the message to undocumented high school students that "Hey, don't try at all in high school and you might as well join a gang because you can't go to college anyway!"</p>

<p>We should be pushing to get them a college education, not slamming the door shut out of spite. This is ridiculous!</p>

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<p>Lack of college education does not = gang member.</p>

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btw, that house issue is still a family problem, and in no way relates to the discussion at hand.

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<p>Merely to highlight an issue with family law as it is practiced and what prize my family has already given this country -- an entire house, which was five times the worth of each unit of public education (in terms of each student's K-12 education, four years of which weren't spent here anyway).</p>

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<p>Closer to work gang member, probably.</p>