<p>To go back and answer the question, though, here's what I would do if I ruled the world. I would offer financial aid to whatever state college the student was accepted to, to students who had graduated from American high schools with satisfactory records (particularly attendance). I wouldn't allow more financial aid than the cost of attendance at a state school. After graduation, I would allow provisional status until the student had held a job for one year, then full citizenship. (But graduation would be required). In conjunction, I would change the ability of immigrants to sponsor relatives, and if the student was convicted of a crime at any time, I would deport that student with no hope of return.</p>
<p>"How long should the immigrants have been here?"</p>
<p>McCain said 13 years, but I think 10 years is a reasonable period, maybe 7. I purposefully prefaced with "For the illegal students who have lived here most of their lives..." But to me, the big picture is more important than the implementation details, even though I know the devil is often in the details. To me, it's more a question of attitude, that illegal students who have lived here most of their lives should be able to attend public colleges.</p>
<p>Z, cross-posting: I think you offer some details that are quite worth considering.</p>
<p>Brutus, thanks for the chuckle. I can see you working the angle, putting a little bait on the hook and such, but no one in this thread said anything about race, or even alluded to it. A couple of folks have been loosely throwing around accusations of xenophobia, but that's been pretty much ignored too. Rest assured that I am not the persona of a frat boy parading around in blackface or throwing beans and tortillas at Mexicans.</p>
<p>"Z, cross-posting: I think you offer some details that are quite worth considering"</p>
<p>I'm not a nazi, Vossrom. I am a person who works closely with illegal immigrants and can therefore see the good and the bad. There IS both. I also despise the charity groups who use them to further agendas having nothing to do with their well-being. I can also see the damage done by importing what is so often an illiterate underclass. Anyone who says that's not a hard thing to fix is kidding himself. HOwever, for the reason I choose to tutor, I understand that there are many people in the illegal immigrant group who, with a helping hand, will be a blessing to our communities. I do not support open borders, I don't support birthright citizenship, I don't support immigration chains, but I do care about individual human beings.</p>
<p>"There's the law-and-order argument, but if the parents broke the law, do we punish the kids? Some vote yes, I vote no."</p>
<p>I vote no to that also, but finding a way to accomplish it without inviting additional complications is not as simple as accepting the concept itself.</p>
<p>zoosermom: u mentioned the real humans a few posts before "my last"</p>
<p>but now were getting to the other side of it. You ask where do you draw the line, i say 5 years is not enough. I would say...10 years is reasonable though, i think the last amnesty was 1980's right? so if not 10 years (which i would agree too), maybe 8. A fine should ofcourse be implemented, as well as full checks if possible to see if there were crimes, or was it just work for the parents who are paying taxes, and studying trying to complete degrees for those students studying here. Thats what i believe/think, they should however be able to fulfill whatever requirements are necessary in the reform to be preformed in US.</p>
<p>I am on the conservative side of this issue but I can definitely see some valid arguments on the amnesty side. </p>
<p>What I do not understand (and I am not trying to be confrontational with anyone) is what do illegal aliens do once they go through a public University? I am under the impression that they cannot legally get a job. Many have the argument that going to college will break the poverty level. As we know, the poverty level is occupied by a high percentage of minorities. However, what is the point for them to go to a U.S. public University if they are not allowed to receive a U.S. job?</p>
<p>I think many on this thread have the impression that illegal aliens are similar to 'leaches.' They don't pay taxes and make other people pay for their benefits. I don't think this is completely true and it is a common misconception, but they definitely pay less to the government than the average citizen. I personally believe in a laisse-faire government system with lower taxes and less government spending. When you consider the amount of taxes a family pays in somewhere like California, it makes me a little uneasy to know that illegal aliens can get that same education without paying the outrageously high taxes and I would bet that they would get some financial aid help as well. </p>
<p>Perhaps I am a bit cynical of the whole illegal alien situation because I live in San Diego, about a mile away from a hot spot where 30+ undocumented Mexicans wait for work everyday. It is not uncommon to hear about shootings, rapings, burglaries, etc dealing with illegal aliens either. </p>
<p>It is a good point someone made. "The parents broke the law, and we punish the kids?" I tend to agree, the parents broke the laws, and the kids in most circumstances had no say in the situation. There really is not a correct answer to the question "Should undocumented students receive a public education without paying the taxes everyone else pays for?" Chances are if the student was not offered a public education, he would not have the money to go to a private school. On the other hand, why do my parents need to pay money towards my college expenses and an undocumented student?</p>
<p>Woah I read most of this thread and galoisien, whether or not I agree with you, your arguments are impressive. You're kicking their butts back a few pages! lol. Now people before you freak out, that's just a joke so don't bother posting some argument against my post.</p>
<p>Anyways, the way I see it, I'd rather have an educated illegal immigrant than a non-educated illegal immigrant.</p>
<p>There was a story in Reader's Digest not too long ago about a man who had come to America as an illegal immigrant as a kid. He did really well in high school and actually caught the attention of Harvard who accepted him. He's now a brain surgeon. So for the stupid argument about not be able to get a job later is completely idiotic. This man obviously did get a job and a job that probably pays more than most people earn on this thread. Just saying.</p>
<p>Now I do understand that this is an rare case, but still you cannot deny the fact that he was able to find employment even though he was illegal, thus there are ways.</p>
<p>What's citizenship anyways? A piece of paper. You're gonna deny someone the gift of a future (an education) because they don't have that piece of paper? </p>
<p>I honestly think that an education is one of the most important things a person can recieve. You're going to deny them this wonderful gift just because of some tax dollars? What a bunch of spineless people who don't understand the value of an education. Do you even know how much of your tax dollars go to public education (per person I mean). Not as much as you may think. You people make it out to seem like half of the taxes you personally pay is going to fund public colleges. WRONG. It's actually a very small portion.</p>
<p>You complain about the crimes that illegals commit. Well duh. If you keep them away from education and from improving their ideas about the world then of course they are going to be a part of that environment. That's what happens to those uneducated. You're perpetuating the crime system by keeping those people away from an education.</p>
<p>** Now I do agree that it is unfair for someone to benefit from citizen taxes. But I honestly think that education is SO fundamentally important to achieving success that I would be willing to let this one go. In terms of other ways of "system leeching" (for welfare, healthcare of illegals) I definitely do not support that, but when it comes to education I do. ** Plus it isn't like they don't pay ANY taxes. And the spillover benefits ultimately do benefit society.</p>
<p>** "A mind is a terrible thing to waste." I don't care if it's the mind of an illegal or a legal. ** This world if already full of enough idiots. We don't need more.</p>
<p>why can't they stay in their own country and get a visa for college?</p>
<p>they should be able to just apply for citizenship, and pay what they owe to society with taxes. they've already taken advantage of public schools that are free, how exactly will they pay for college if they're illegals anyways?</p>
<p>they are breaking laws, we should be trying to figure out how to enforce the law or CHANGE it, not trying to figure out how to help them further break the law...</p>
<p>"zoosermom: u mentioned the real humans a few posts before "my last"
No, I absolutely did not. you mis-read. You still owe me an apology and a retraction. The reference was to actual people paying taxes, as opposed to some mythical "government." Try and read more carefully next time before you slander someone.</p>
<p>"why can't they stay in their own country and get a visa for college?"</p>
<p>Getting a visa is not simple at all. Many people don't get one if they apply. It's not you just apply and you magically get one. And if they are truly desparate in trying to attain success and an education they won't be willing to take this risk.</p>
<p>"not trying to figure out how to help them further break the law..."</p>
<p>We're not. The thread asks whether or not colleges should accept them. Some people are arguing that admitting illegals to college should be legal.</p>
<p>"how exactly will they pay for college if they're illegals anyways?"</p>
<p>Ever heard of financial aid? Plus they do have SOME money.</p>
<p>CBK wrote:
"a neighboring town of ours is rampant with illegals renting homes, basement apartments.</p>
<p>One home had 17 children coming out of it every morning to attend school.</p>
<p>The owner(slumlord) of the property was paying 5,000 in school property taxes. Now I seriously doubt the school districts burden of educating the 17 children that is tagged at 16,000 per child is being met by the 5,000 nor anywhere near the taxes an illegal alien adult will pay in consumer goods.
16,000 X 17=172,000."</p>
<p>Well thank goodness those children are attending school! They could instead be out gangbanging or doing drugs or just being truant. Their parents must be doing something right!</p>
<p>Are you assuming that all 17 children are themselves "illegals?" Their parents may be undocumented immigrants, but I wonder how many of those children were born here in the US making them US citizens entitled to every public benefit, including a public education?</p>
<p>Blaming undocumented people for the cost of a public education makes no sense really. If you have two property owners in your town each paying $5,000 per year in property taxes and each sending one child to school, then you have a situation in which each property owner is using $11,000 more in someone else's money to pay for their child's education. It's pretty much irrelevant whether either of the property owners is making $12,000 per year or $120,000 per year or is a US citizen or undocumented. Property taxes do not pay the entire cost of a public education, thank goodness -- that's why we have education bonds and other state government funding sources.</p>
<p>There has been some discussion here whether undocumented immigrants pay income taxes or their fair share of income taxes. In my experience as an immigration attorney, I have observed anecdotally that it is more likely that the US citizen spouse/parent/child who is petitioning his/her relative is an income tax cheat than the undocumented immigrant who is trying to legalize his/her status. For permanent residents (green card holders) who are trying to get citizenship, failure to pay income taxes can result in denial of naturalization, and for undocumented persons trying to legalize their status, failure to pay taxes is a discretionary factor that can result in denial of permanent resident status and deportation.</p>
<p>The IRS provides tax payer ID numbers for people who cannot get SSNs so that they can pay income taxes. There are hundreds of thousands of undocumented people who are working under the table because they cannot work legally, but they do pay their taxes using taxpayer IDs. They are actually the ones being cheated because employers do not take out SS taxes, disability or unemployment taxes, or provide health and other benefits that other workers doing the same jobs get. There are also hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of undocumented people who actually do have valid SSNs issued to them back in the 1990s or earlier when anyone who entered with a visa could apply for a SSN. These folks are virtually undetectable except that they cannot travel out of the US.</p>
<p>Charity begins at home. I believe that. Resources are not infinite. I believe that also. There are way too many people who are here legally unable to get a quality education. I thnk solving that issue comes first in the pecking order before worrying about how to best educate illegals. Once all our CITIZENS can get a quality education, then we can discuss others. </p>
<p>And that is part of the equation too isn't it? There are huge numbers people in the US here legally that are severely underserved. I certainly think our first priority should be to them.</p>
<p>We'll see what happens with the The California Dream Act, now in the Assembly Rules Committee. For illegal students who grew up here and whose parents have been paying taxes all along, I'm for it.</p>
<p>"is an income tax cheat than the undocumented immigrant who is trying to legalize his/her status. "</p>
<p>What has been your experience (if any) in terms of illegal immigrants who aren't trying to legalize?</p>
<p>"Fivekey,</p>
<p>Thank you for sharing your experience, it is very interesting. I have question for you: Why did your parents come here, when it puts you in a terrible situation? I understand why poverty-stricken people from Mexico might feel the need to migrate out of dire necessity. But your father is apparently very financially well-off if he can easily pay for your $50K/year tuition. If you are willing to share, what does he say about his motivation for coming here, and your post-graduation prospects?"</p>
<p>My father initially came to America to work at a broadcasting company which promised him sponsorship for a green card. My father majored in communications during his university years in Korea and saw the prospect of working America very promising and exciting. However, when he came and started working for the company, it suddenly became bankrupt and in a series of events, my father was unable to obtain a green card through employment.</p>
<p>I believe my father once told me that we chose to stay because by the time that he realized that the broadcasting company was going bankrupt, it was too late to return. My older sister had already finished elementary school and I was almost finished with my elementary school years too. He believed that we were too rooted here, so he decided to overstay his workers' visa.</p>
<p>I am not too sure what I'll do after graduating. I do know that I plan to continue my studies after undergraduate school. For now, all I am worrying about is my education for now. My dad has always told me to financial problems to him and to focus on being well-educated. He has always played a very high value on education.</p>
<p>"You are in illegal status. You are not a legal resident or a citizen and, therefore, are not deserving of the benefits of legality."</p>
<p>Thanks for stating and repeating the obvious. You really give a lot of input into this discussion...</p>
<p>Benefits of legality? I presume that one of those benefits is the ability of some universities to tell the truth. I actually asked all my universities if it would be OK to apply with my status and initially they told me that they can review my application. However, when time came to read applications, they simply just told me that they cannot read my application and did not refund my application fee. I understand that it may be a benefit to be considered by an university, but I think it odd that they initially told me that they will even consider my application when they could not in reality. Oh well! :) C'est la vie!</p>
<p>"I ask you what does your country owe you and what do you owe to the US?"</p>
<p>Cheesy twist of words... but that's aside from the topic at hand. Not everyone can be original, huh?</p>
<p>Whether or not people may agree with me, a mind is a very precious thing to waste. Among the basic provisions that the U.S. guarantees to all people, I believe that it is obligated to provide education, whether it be public, private, low quality, high quality, to all people as well. The mind is simply just too important to waste. You can disagree with me all you want, but I will always value education the most. I would never deny anyone the ability to expand their mind.</p>
<p>Although a bit blunt, it is true that I am simply a leech in the eyes of some people. However, I still do believe in returning something back to the U.S. when I am capable of doing so. I think that when I am able to legally enter the field of biomedical research, I plan to use my efforts to help find cures for certain diseases. A stretch but it isn't everyday that someone finds a new cure for a disease. Still... isn't everyone contributing to the U.S. in some form? Why does it all have to be in the form of taxes? A janitor is helping to keep a certain complex clean, a teacher is helping to foster the minds of future Americans, and even a person working at McDonalds is helping people from their hunger. I still don't understand why "contributing" to the American society has to be strictly in the form of paying taxes.</p>
<p>"No, I absolutely did not. you mis-read. You still owe me an apology and a retraction. The reference was to actual people paying taxes, as opposed to some mythical "government." Try and read more carefully next time before you slander someone."</p>
<p>then you also misunderstood me, because the people i know and was speaking about are paying taxes to the Federal government, the ones that you and I pay taxes to not the "mythical one", and as i have mentioned each time, i was not trying to argue and the only thing i am sorry for is if you viewed what i wrote as slander, because that wasnt the intent. </p>
<p>Imaginationpower: for the question about why they cant stay in there country...who knows? the situations are different but if i had to guess probably some type of religious or political aggression probably.</p>
<p>and i do have experience of a situation like this of someone very close to me, so yeah it is possible, and the guy is a smart kid. Now there are other kids i know who dont study, would rather smoke marijuana and probably are not getting into any decent college even if they applied, does that mean they are underserved in any way? Is the friend i have at fault because he studies and tries his hardest so he can one day become something? I mean im sure we all have stories good and bad, but my experiences i guess is the reason why i am for an effective reform.</p>
<p>"Cheesy twist of words"</p>
<p>Too hard to answer, isn't it? Might make you have to face some painful truths.</p>
<p>"Whether or not people may agree with me, a mind is a very precious thing to waste"</p>
<p>Speaking of cheesy. I know personally some people in Korea. Every one of them has a mind.</p>
<p>"Among the basic provisions that the U.S. guarantees to all people, I believe that it is obligated to provide education, whether it be public, private, low quality, high quality, to all people as well."</p>
<p>Not at the college level.</p>
<p>" I still don't understand why "contributing" to the American society has to be strictly in the form of paying taxes."</p>
<p>Because providing services like education, medical care, garbage pick-up, etc. costs money. If one person isn't paying, then someone else has to pay more out of their hard-earned money. Most of us work hard and don't particularly want to support oters as a matter of course. Here's a comparison: I used to live in a condo complex. The cable tv came as part of the common charges. There were a couple of famlies who didn't pay their common charges but still had cable (because of the wiring). They were taking money out of someone else's pocket. Like I said before, there is no "government" who provides things. Individual people go to work every day to earn money for their families, and the taxes taken from them should be very respectfully treated. It is not ok to take more than is needed, and it is not necessary to provide support to anyone and everyone who can sneak across the border or overstay their visa.</p>
<p>"then you also misunderstood me, because the people i know and was speaking about are paying taxes to the Federal government, the ones that you and I pay taxes to not the "mythical one", and as i have mentioned each time, i was not trying to argue and the only thing i am sorry for is if you viewed what i wrote as slander, because that wasnt the intent. "</p>
<p>How utterly dishonest and sleazy. this is what you posted (and it's not what you just said). For shame You accused me of something I didn't say because you can't read, then you played the race card. Shame, shame, shame. You still owe me an apology and retraction. You've just now shown yourself a fool in front of the entire forum.</p>
<p>as hopefully one of my last comments to you on this thread, so your cafefully distinguishing them when you say there "not real human beings" indirectly? and how can u say ur not involving the group u are acquainted with when that is ur basis for why "i would be suprised" ? ...</p>
<p>this reminds me of the 3/5'ths compromise, just as a side question, do you consider illegal aleins what white people considered african americans during times of slavery?"
Shame on you.</p>
<p>it was a question i asked, after u clarified i did as well, this is just a normal discussion no need to act so puerile. if you dont understand what questions are maybe you should look it up. My statements were in forms of a question.</p>