<p>"First of all undoc. families DO pay taxes, and believe it or not some do have "</p>
<p>Some, but by no means all.</p>
<p>"Immigration reform was something not in the mind of the last presidency and if it was, nothing effective. "</p>
<p>Little uninformed there, aren't you?</p>
<p>"Its pretty sad when you know people who have possibly been living here longer than some of us (who were not born here ofcourse), and they do not have good status."</p>
<p>Decisions have consequences.</p>
<p>So inform me of what i am uninformed about, and explain to me how it was so effective.</p>
<p>"Decisions have consequences."</p>
<p>I agree, I am not saying they have no fault. I'm saying there should be some type of reform, not just send everyone back. Certain circumstances need more attention then others but obviously if they are here undocumented and are committing crimes and are threats, thats a different case. But if they are doing anything wrong, getting education, working hard, paying taxes...what justification is there (besides the way they came here) for them to not be given a chance?</p>
<p>"So inform me of what i am uninformed about, and explain to me how it was so effective."</p>
<p>Immigration was a huge priority for President Bush, which put him at odds with his base in a very big way. You should definitely do some research on that because you're factually incorrect in saying that immigration reform wasn't a priority for this administration.</p>
<p>"But if they are doing anything wrong, getting education, working hard, paying taxes...what justification is there (besides the way they came here) for them to not be given a chance?"</p>
<p>Unfortunately, finding out who is whom is almost impossible. If we could find those illegals who aren't committing other crimes, are hardworking, assimilable, and literate, I'd all for it, but we can't, and the need to protect American citizens is too great to ignore the problem. I support enforcement and attrition.</p>
<p>"If we could find those illegals who aren't committing other crimes, are hardworking, assimilable, and literate, I'd all for it, but we can't"</p>
<p>You might not be able to find all of them but you can some of them. and if those are the ones that are eligible for a right path then imo thats fine, especially the ones with social security, how can it be that somewhere there are not records of them, especially if they are paying federal taxes and there children are going to school and going on to colleges that allow them to attend?</p>
<p>I still believe there should be some way, if there is any way.</p>
<p>"You might not be able to find all of them but you can some of them"</p>
<p>You might be surprised. As I said, I've worked with them for decades. Honored to do so in most cases, but even the most hardworking are trying to get over, to take as much as they can out of the US. Many don't even want to stay here, they want to take what they can get and send it back. I've become really cynical because so many have been indoctrinated by groups that hate "the man" and think their clients are entitled to any and everything, without regard to the fact that it's real human beings who pay for the things they take.</p>
<p>Ok cool?</p>
<p>Like i have said not everyone is like that, comon do you honestly believe that every single one does not want to stay here, take what they can "dry out the US" ? if so then you need to read what you have been telling others because im going to say "You dont know that." and your honored to work with them yet there not "real human beings." </p>
<p>Anyways i respect what you believe and im sure you have good reason to believe so as i have already stated that some of the things your saying makes sense to me. The OP asked what are your views, and i gave mine. the end</p>
<p>Just because a famous philosopher comes up with an idea doesn't mean that it is an immutable principle which can and should be applied in every case. </p>
<p>Utilitarianism is the classic example of this. From wikipedia, Utilitarianism is "the idea that the moral worth of an action is solely determined by its contribution to overall utility in maximizing happiness or pleasure as summed among all persons." It's valid as a guiding principle, but it doesn't determine by itself whether something is moral. It could be used to justify a lot of clearly immoral actions, particularly oppression against a small minority to benefit the majority. </p>
<p>So just because Rousseau and Locke said something which may support your point-of-view doesn't mean it's right.</p>
<p>Another point to consider is that if we change policies so that it is legal for an undocumented immigrant to get a job and file for a driver's license, get an education, federal funding for college, and any benefits that citizens get, then we don't just affect the illegal immigrant population here. By doing this, we would create and even bigger incentive for immigrants to come here, and there is no way to no whether we could support such a large population influx.</p>
<p>"Like i have said not everyone is like that, comon do you honestly believe that every single one does not want to stay here, take what they can "dry out the US"
I've been very careful in distinguishing that I'm not speaking for any entire group, not even the group with whom I am personally acquainted.</p>
<p>"I think we can link these two together. "</p>
<p>Race has nothing to do with it, except in their own countries. Because as I said, it's the home countries of the people to whom I devote my time that single them out as disposable human beings. If you have nothing to add but feel compelled to trot out the discredited race card, lay it where it belongs, which is not here.</p>
<p>Isn't there some principle that if you invoke Hitler or Nazis in an argument you have automatically lost the argument? What is the name for that?</p>
<p>Etubrutus, maybe we should just ban fraternities. I'd be all for that.</p>
<p>zoosermom:</p>
<p>as hopefully one of my last comments to you on this thread, so your cafefully distinguishing them when you say there "not real human beings" indirectly? and how can u say ur not involving the group u are acquainted with when that is ur basis for why "i would be suprised" ? ...</p>
<p>this reminds me of the 3/5'ths compromise, just as a side question, do you consider illegal aleins what white people considered african americans during times of slavery?</p>
<p>"Of course zoosermom entirely unrelated topics. When we think of illegal aliens we think of those hardy little pilgrims landing on plymouth rock."</p>
<p>DOn't include me in your "we." I think of the people I work with, live next door to and invite into my home.</p>
<p>"as hopefully one of my last comments to you on this thread, so your cafefully distinguishing them when you say there "not real human beings" indirectly?"</p>
<p>Find the post where I said anyone was "not real human beings." You owe me an apology and a retraction. Immediately.</p>
<p>@Ettubrutus: So any policy other than granting citizenship to anyone in the world is a policy driven by hate?</p>
<p>Brutus, some of what you say about the causes of this crisis are absolutely true. There is no question about that. THe question is what to do now, and calling people racist who are clearly not, is not helpful to anyone. How much of your time and money do you spend helping illegal immigrants? I spend a lot of both. How much has your life been affected by their presence? Mine has a lot. Why do you think that the way you favor is the only way to resolve this crisis? None of you have ever addressed the families left behind or the people who have come to America because they have no choice, not because they want to. Yes, they were desperate for work and food, but many would have been happy to have those things in their homes, with their families and cultures. Why do you repeatedly ignore that side of the argument?</p>
<p>"What is most pathetic is people are fooled by the smoke and mirrors of it all and do not see what they have in common. This goes all the way back to Bacon's rebellion."</p>
<p>What is pathetic is that people are so completely unable to think independently and don't stray from the conventional wisdom of people who share their mindset. What's pathetic is calling people who hold different points of view racist. What is really pathetic is invoking Hitler whenever there is a disagreement. As long as people behave that way, nothing can be resolved and we can never have a civil discourse.</p>
<p>""Not every illegal who wants to go to college came as a small child. I tutor many who came here in their late teens because there is an entire network engaged in sucking the US dry."
You do understand that I was referring to the network of social services providers that deal with the illegal immigrants here, not the individual human beings, right?</p>
<p>We've gone a bit astray from the OP's issue. Here's a simple viewpoint:</p>
<p>For the illegal students who have lived here most of their lives, their parents have paid the same taxes (property and sales) that legal parents of the same economic level have paid during these years, so they are no more parasites than the legal poor are parasites (neither group pays income taxes), so the parasite argument is weak.</p>
<p>There's the law-and-order argument, but if the parents broke the law, do we punish the kids? Some vote yes, I vote no.</p>
<p>"For the illegal students who have lived here most of their lives, their parents have paid the same taxes (property and sales) that legal parents of the same economic level have paid during these years, so they are no more parasites than the legal poor are parasites (neither group pays income taxes), so the parasite argument is weak."</p>
<p>The response is the same, despite your repeatedly ignoring it: what is true for some is not true for all. Where would you, personally, draw the line? I asked this earlier and it wasn't answered. How long should the immigrants have been here? 5 years? 10? 2 weeks? What other criteria would you apply? I'm asking for an answer, this is not rhetorical. I'm genuinely interested to see if you have a position as opposed to a collection of talking points that you will repeat ad nauseum.</p>