<p>Locke would not say undocumented people are American citizens. In order to enact the social contract, they must obey the laws of the country, which included the proper legal documentation and naturalization procedures. </p>
<p>I just wrote a paper on Locke's political theory as it applied to his state of war theory and the applications of it to the analysis of civil war, so I'm pretty on top of my Locke.</p>
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which included the proper legal documentation and naturalization procedures.
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Which aren't being followed by the country anyway ...</p>
<p>The point is that the laws set out by a just social contract would be of a considerably different nature; a just social contract does not prevent you from joining a society simply because of xenophobia. Locke would argue for liberalisations of immigration procedure.</p>
<p>They SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS. PERIOD.</p>
<p>They are lucky enough that we don't take them and ship them back over the boarder. To have taxpayer dollars go to funding people who don't pay taxes is OUTRAGEOUS. I can't believe such a leech-policy has been inflicted on Americans....wow.</p>
<p>They should be allowed in private schools, being those are private institutions and not funded by the people, but the people should not fund them when they do not return money to society like everyone else does. Period.</p>
<p>So you think a person's sole contribution to society is his taxes, yes? Even when he has to take lower than minimum wage?</p>
<p>Regardless of if the laws are just or not, they must be followed to be part of the society. There is nothing making it OK to break laws. Just because I think the marijuana laws are bullcrap doesn't mean I can just toke up whenever I want not expect to suffer some kind of penalty because of it.</p>
<p>While I think that the laws in regards to immigration should be loosened, they aren't at this moment, and the question at hand is pretty straightfoward. Community colleges and state schools are paid for by tax dollars for the tax payers. They are not for those who don't pay taxes, simple as that.</p>
<p>EDIT: Just for refrence, while you are picking apart other peoples' arguments, you forgot the flaws within your own. You can't base an argument on ideal conditions, because then you have changed the context of the question at hand. You are making the statement "[it] should be like [this] because [society] should be like [this]". Society isn't under your own personal ideal conditions, so thus you cannot argue it as such.</p>
<p>"That's what you think. "</p>
<p>That's what I KNOW since I teach the illiterate to read. As far as the house, I'm genuinely sorry, but the target of your anger shouldn't be the US, it should be your father.</p>
<p>I have a lot of issues with the current illegal immigrant situation. On one hand, we are cracking down on illegals, on the other, we encourage them. For starters, we need to start enforcing the rules we have on illegal immigrants, so that we can truly see what the consequences of such laws are and adjust accordingly. Both sides of the issues like to scream that the laws are not strict enough. too strict and would lead to disaster if enforced/need to be augmented because they are not good enough. Well, let's just see what happens. Maybe we will come to a standstill economically, maybe not. We have been surprised before with conclusions not matching the theory. By ignoring the law as it stands, leaves chaos for everyone.</p>
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Community colleges and state schools are paid for by tax dollars for the tax payers. They are not for those who don't pay taxes, simple as that.
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</p>
<p>They are paid with tax dollars to account for spillover benefits.</p>
<p>What is it with the taxpayer thing? They would pay taxes if they had any other way, duh -- just give them the opportunity to pay it another way. That is on top of the fact that taxes are not the majority of a person's economic contribution to a society (unless tax rates have become <em>that</em> high). </p>
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Society isn't under your own personal ideal conditions, so thus you cannot argue it as such.
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Not so much as ideal conditions as ideal laws, which would bring about optimum (not necessarily ideal) conditions.</p>
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Just because I think the marijuana laws are bullcrap doesn't mean I can just toke up whenever I want not expect to suffer some kind of penalty because of it.
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<p>doing something just != expecting not to be punished
.</p>
<p>What is proscribed to be just is not necessarily just. For example if the majority of the individuals followed an IMPLICIT social contract even though the EXPLICIT (codified) law allowed everyone to steal from each other (with conditions, say), then society would still run itself under that implicit social contract because the majority of individuals have ignored the explicit contract, knowing it to be unjust. And there, society has demonstrated its ability to run itself.</p>
<p>If everyone thought cannabis laws were bullcrap to the extent of say, not paying attention to it as a form of civil disobedience, then that law would effectively be just a piece of paper. Laws are nothing without the culture that enforces them, and culture can know when a law is unjust and refuse to follow it as a form of civil disobedience.</p>
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Just know that in no other country would someone in your financial status and attitude be given such an opportunity.
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</p>
<p>Opportunity in terms of?</p>
<p>There is the National University of Singapore, which has a tuition of 2600 USD per year .... but the political climate and political rights situation in my birth country is very repressive, which is why I made my most recent migration.</p>
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Galoisien here is not only a hypocrite
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</p>
<p>Please, point out my hypocrisy.</p>
<p>I'm being a hypocrite because I'm highly discontent with the current state of immigration laws and the cultural reaction towards immigrants? I am simply giving an argumentative analysis of the situation. </p>
<p>If I were anything but an immigrant, would your reaction be so hostile to me?</p>
<p>What the bloody hell is a starbucks liberal. I am anything but the modern liberal ... a <em>classical</em> Lockean liberal, maybe.</p>
<p>We don't have ideal conditions, or as you word it, ideal laws. Thus, idealism cannot be applied. Your argument is nullified.</p>
<p>Laws are still something as long as the government enforces them, just as much as political power is still something even though society doesn't support it. Bush was able to pass bills despite the fact that, at one point, over 70% of Americans were against him. </p>
<p>Once again, ideal conditions are not actual conditions. You seem to know alot about political theory and sociology, but if you took an intro-level Chemistry course, you'd realise that somethings can only hold true aslong as ideal conditions hold true, and in this case, they don't.</p>
<p>Forum topics such as this make me sad. As an undocumented immigrant student, I seem to see these kinds of arguments everywhere from the Internet to my AP U.S. Government & Politics class. It's even worse because I can't say much in person as it will probably put me in an odd situation.</p>
<p>I actually came to America when I was only two months old, meaning that I actually had no say in the decision. If I had stayed in my home country, maybe things would have been different, but things did not work out that way. Now I have been fully assimilated into American culture that if I were to return to my home country, people would shun me for various reasons. For one, the citizens of my home country are very narrow-minded and xenophobic. They prefer that their people stick to their own culture rather than mingling in that of others. Thus, it is literally impossible for me to return as I would be a social outcast. I would be talked about behind my back. I would have to say that America is the most amazing country as it is totally a cultural mixing pot (and no, I'm not giving a "I love America" speech; this is one thing that I've noticed during my years of living in America and talking to newly immigrated friends who are also narrow minded). In addition, my Korean is not as developed as it should be if I had lived in South Korea currently. Thus, I would not be able to communicate that easily. Some of you say that undocumented immigrants should just simply return to their home countries, but most of us were brought into the U.S. without any say in the decision. Most of us are truly deeply rooted into this culture, and it would be social suicide to return to our country of origin. It’s not that easy…</p>
<p>So as an undocumented immigrant student living here for seventeen years, a lot of people ask me why my parents have not applied for naturalization. Firstly and foremost, I was too ignorant and oblivious to the whole idea of naturalization when I was a little child. So were my parents. Thus, we had no idea on how to become naturalized in the first place. Of course, who’s to blame? I personally point the finger at my parents, but the past is the past. There is no use for me to be sullen about it. I’ve lived well with what I have and so have my parents.</p>
<p>“They SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS. PERIOD.</p>
<p>They are lucky enough that we don't take them and ship them back over the boarder. To have taxpayer dollars go to funding people who don't pay taxes is OUTRAGEOUS. I can't believe such a leech-policy has been inflicted on Americans....wow.</p>
<p>They should be allowed in private schools, being those are private institutions and not funded by the people, but the people should not fund them when they do not return money to society like everyone else does. Period.”</p>
<p>Nice grammar and spelling for a “future lawyer”. You serve your country proud. It’s that kind of xenophobic attitude that fuels even more hate, eventually leading to an entirely xenophobic country (The Red Scare anyone?). In addition, I can’t believe that you just compared human beings to leeches. I hope you realize one day, when you do mature, that a person isn’t worth less or more just because he or she pays or does not pay his or her tax dollars.</p>
<p>Most of the arguments here seem to be centered on tax-payers’ dollars and public education that is funded with those tax dollars. My parents pay all of the taxes that they can possible pay. But is it truly the monetary input that determines whether a person is valuable to society or the U.S.? How about the thousands of American people who squabble about their new cars while thousands of children in third-world countries are starving? Are they still human and worthy of being “American” just because they pay their tax money yet refuse to be charitable in any other way? I see that I may seem to be digressing from the topic at hand, but I believe that view of a person should be changed. I believe that the true measure of worth depends on how the person performs as a citizen in other matters. Why does the person with true skill, expansive knowledge, or a beautiful mind get immediately shot down just because he or she does not hold a green card? I do believe that one must lay down the law, but it is hard to do so when so many people have moved here when they were only infants. Now it is too late for them to move back. As a student attending a very rich public school near Malibu, I can see a lot of things that troubles me about the American constituency in general. So many Caucasians are so engrossed in using drugs and partying, I wonder how they will ever function as a true member of society. Tell me… does such a person who simply goes to school and never utilizes that knowledge truly deserve it? I do think that some people simply go to college because everyone else does. They believe that an institution of higher education equates to simply “partying all night long”. What a waste of an education! Is that what your precious tax dollars are for? I’m generalizing, and I apologize beforehand. My point is that just because someone is an American citizen does not mean that they will truly contribute to the society which they represent. This is a bit like the whole merit versus royalty struggle. Just because someone was born into the American society doesn’t mean that they deserve it. A person from another country may as well be a better “American” than a person who was born in America.</p>
<p>Overall, I hope the U.S. one day realizes that a person isn’t worth any more or any less because he or she pays his or her tax dollars, and that that person shouldn’t be measured by where he or she was born, but by what they accomplish. I can’t even get a drivers license, yet I ride the public MTA bus everyday for an hour and thirty minutes just to get to school. In comparison, some of my peers complain about walking four to five blocks when they live so close to school, and sometimes they don’t even come to school because they are too lazy. The difference in attitudes is astounding! I even stayed at school until 9:00 PM just to study and participate in our school’s Academic Decathlon team. Then I would ride the public bus again and come home at 11:00 PM. Education is truly a valuable thing, and I believe it should be given to those who truly want to utilize it. Not simply to some person who applies to college simply because everyone else is and wants to play and party all day. I’m not singling out any race or ethnicity. I’m simply saying that we need to see this issue in another perspective. Public education is truly an amazing thing, and I believe that it should be given to those that merit it.</p>
<p>As a closing statement, I’d like to quote a poster in my AP English Literature and Composition class that makes me laugh everytime that I see it. It’s a poster of a Native American man pointing the finger with an angry face, and it says, “Who’s the illegal alien, Pilgrim?”. Another poster says, “Sure you can trust an American… Just ask an Indian”. No, my teacher is not a Native American. She’s actually a Caucasian lady. I believe that many of you are forgetting what America was to begin with. America was a nation of immigrants to begin with. Why are we so hostile to immigrants now? The topic at hand deals with undocumented immigrants, but the contention stands still. We’re slowly becoming so xenophobic that we’re forgetting the reasons for why we came to this land in the first place. To escape prosecution, for economic reasons, whatever it was, John F. Kennedy stated that we are truly a nation of immigrants. Just because one person immigrated before the other person doesn't make him or her a more authentic American. We are all the same, and of course, some of you would hate to hear that because you are so engrossed in the idea that you were the original inhabitants of this land. I guess it's time for a bit of a history review. Also, please do remember that not all of us had a choice in the first place, and that now it’s too late to turn back. So how will the U.S. deal with that problem? Students who had no choice in the first place, and can't return anymore? Some of the undocumented immigrant students can't even speak their native language. Returning to their country of origin would be social suicide, as mentioned before. People have this odd preconception that all undocumented immigrants are the typical "Latino jumping over a fence" (sorry for using this image, but it's true) and that it would be easy for them to return onto the other side, but there are people of all different races and ethnicities who are undocumented. They all face different situations, so before you quantify us as a whole, inspect each and every different cross-section before "dropping the hammer' on us, as we all have different circumstances... No, I'm not angry at anyone. I'm just a bit disappointed. :) So what do we do now? Well as a budding mathematician, I think I have an idea about a pyramid inside of a cube...</p>
<p>P.S. Some of you say that instead of simply disobeying laws, one should change immigration policies by lobbying and such... Americans have the quality of being ignorant, irrational, and unable to vote without being influenced. This is a fundamental principle of our constituency. That's the whole reason why we have the electorate! To prevent being overtaken by irrational and ignorant mob rule! Some of you say that we should simply change laws, but what makes you think that most of the Americans will even enact or support such a radical change? Most of the eligible voters won't even vote. Voter turnout has been declining steadily for the last few years! Good luck with enacting such legislation! Before proposing or arguing with such non-thought-provoking statements... please think things through. It's easy to say that laws can be changed, but its extremely hard to make it actually happen. I'm not saying that we should break laws instead of changing the laws that we dislike, but I'm simply stating that laws are very different to change and/or create, and that such argument is baseless and is clearly a sign of someone who didn't think their arguments through...</p>
<p>Hear hear, FiveKey!</p>
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</p>
<p>In this case we have a certain case of what the law should be ... since the question is framed in a should manner, in terms of arguing policy one can also propose other things that would support that "should" resolution. </p>
<p>In <em>principle</em>, most undocumented students should not have the trouble they have. They would be a constructive member of the social contract. In fact they are a constructive member of the social contract -- only not on paper. </p>
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Bush was able to pass bills despite the fact that, at one point, over 70% of Americans were against him.
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</p>
<p>That is why Rousseau said that representative democracy was an unjust and illegal social contract (as opposed to direct self-rule).</p>
<p>The fact that one is able to pass measures against the majority of opinion show that something is wrong with how the current contract is organised indeed.</p>
<p>Well, voter turnout's surprisingly increased this year (probably more as a result of the rockstar personas and the economy, but still). I know a few undocumented 'illegals' myself, and as a first generation American, I have to say that it's not the kids who should be punished, but rather the parents. I do believe that everyone should pay taxes, because you really are not paying your fair share (I'd like somewhat of an amnesty for illegals, but that's just me ;) ) I'm perfectly fine with people like you, FiveKey. As long as one integrates into American culture, etc etc, American dream, yadday, it's all fine and dandy.</p>
<p>But some people don't try to do that. Why even bother coming to America? The salad bowl theory (where nothing really mixes) is a load of poop. We (as in the 290-so million legal American citizens) shouldn't have to pay for medical expenses and schooling that the illegals never actually pay for.</p>
<p>How would you like it if you and your friends went out a restaurant but one of them refused to pay, making the others pay up the difference? Albeit the illegal situation is a bit more serious, but in general, it's the same concept.</p>
<p>And either way, the illegals are taxed no matter what they say. Ever hear of sales tax?</p>
<p>FiveKey,</p>
<p>What are your career plans? How will you get a job in the U.S. when you graduate? Do you have fake documents (not implying, just asking)?</p>
<p>Also, can you expand on what you mean by "social suicide" if you were to return to Korea? I have known Americans who would love to live and work overseas but cannot get the proper visas or jobs with American companies that would enable them to do so. You would be at an advantage here.</p>
<p>"I have to say that it's not the kids who should be punished, but rather the parents"</p>
<p>It's not a question of punishment, it's a question of using taxpayer money in a fair and reasonable manner. Most taxpayers aren't filthy rich and paying for the education of people who don't pay taxes is an unreasonable burden. There are conseqences to American taxpayers caused by the presence of people here illegally who don't pay their share. I live in a borough of NYC in which we have two hospitals to serve 500,000 people, not counting illegals. One of those hospitals is in bankruptcy as a result of treating the uninsured. The ERs are overwhelmed and incapable of handling the masses. I happen to have a seriously ill child in the hospital right now and this has impacted level of care and comfort directly. I teach literacy to non-English speakers, most of whom are illegal, and I am deeply sympathetic, but American taxpayers can't be asked to pay the bill for people who don't respect the rule of law or the ethnic cleansing of places like Mexico. The countries of citizenship owe these kids (and parents) an education and healthcare, not American taxpayers.</p>
<p>Where's the connection between being undocumented and not paying taxes? If their parents pay rent, they pay property taxes. When they buy from stores they pay sales taxes. I suspect (does anyone have numbers?) that they earn too little to pay income taxes. If they're being paid cash wages, they are avoiding FICA, SDI, etc., but the employer will pay higher income taxes. Our comparative standard of living is so high that I think we still have enough to go around to be able avoid punishing the innocent kids.</p>
<p>But I recognize that this is based mostly on attitude or philosophy, the degree of sharing that we're individually willing to support.</p>
<p>All of this on top of the fact that taxes comprise only a minority of your contribution to an economy.</p>
<p>Im still saying that disobeying a law quitely with the intent of never being found it is not "Civil Disobedience" in the patriotic sense of the word. "Civil Disobedience" as you seem to view it requires that one take a stand and work for the better of all people, not just oneself.</p>
<p>"Regardless of if the laws are just or not, they must be followed to be part of the society. There is nothing making it OK to break laws. Just because I think the marijuana laws are bullcrap doesn't mean I can just toke up whenever I want not expect to suffer some kind of penalty because of it."</p>
<p>To reiterate a previous example: When Harriet Tubman helped slaves escape, violating the United States fugitive slave laws, she worked in secrecy through her "Underground Railroad." So when many people helped slaves break their chains of bondage, they were doing so against the law. Should they have not because they were breaking the law?</p>
<p>"Believing a law is wrong does not give on the moral basis to disobey it. If one feels a law is unfair then one should speak up and fight to change it. Breaking a law and sneaking around, hoping no one finds out is immoral it benefits only the law breaker and worsens the situation for others who are suffering under the unjust law."</p>
<p>I guess so.</p>
<p>"Law is a historically evolving and culturally specific enterprise in which moral argument, distinctive interpretive practices, and force are brought to bear on the organization of social life."</p>
<p>Basically, laws are implemented within social context. Just 70 years ago, many Americans agreed upon segregation ("separate but equal"), but now many do not. Now, people agree that deportation of illegal immigrants/ denying public education is legally justified. Personally, I hope in the future, this ideology will become rarer because no human being is illegal.</p>
<p>Great comments. Keep it going!</p>
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Im still saying that disobeying a law quitely with the intent of never being found it is not "Civil Disobedience" in the patriotic sense of the word.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I was referring to the employers, not the undocumented individuals themselves.</p>
<p>Were I an employer, I would employ an undocumented worker if I were attracted to his labour, and at or above minimum wage too. Not only would it be out of my principles, but it makes economic sense on both sides.</p>