Undocumented Students Denied College Admissions: What Do You Think

<p>Go California and its DREAM Act! </p>

<p>Illegal immigrants pay as much taxes as you and me. </p>

<p>Criminalizing students who were forced into this country by their parents... you should be ashamed of yourself. They didn't have a chance to protest, they don't have the money to return even if they could speak the language as well as they can English. They can't do anything about it. </p>

<p>Saying that they should not be able to enter a public school is preposterous. They might not be dirt poor, but if it weren't for public colleges, these undocumented students would never get a chance to go to school... it simply costs too much. Do we really want more people who have a great potential than working in McDonalds to be working blue-collar jobs? </p>

<p>Thank you, FiveUp for sharing your story. I wish you the best of luck and hope you will find a way to be naturalized soon. </p>

<p>Bay, that's not your concern, it's pi's. How rude of you to ask.</p>

<p>I agree with zoosermom. The very idea that legal citizens should shoulder the burden of illegals is ridiculous no matter how the argument is spun. There are avenues to legal citizenship. People empathetic to illegals should focus on improving such paths and making them more efficient. That would garner much more support from Americans than trying to argue that it's reasonable to circumvent the law, crash into social structures paid for and designed to support legal citizens, and otherwise reap the same benefits as full citizens. That's not a way to advocate for citizenship, it's a prelude to anarchy and social unrest, which is what we are experiencing. </p>

<p>I don't care how young they were when they got here, or how cheaply they are willing to pick fruit or clean toilets. That's not the point where I'm concerned. They still need to follow a prescribed path to legal status before reaping the benefits of such. I don't see anything wrong with demanding citizenship be gained orderly instead of giving in to the present chaos.</p>

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Illegal immigrants pay as much taxes as you and me.

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<p>This is false, they do not pay as much taxes as I do.</p>

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to the interests of people invading or contry illegally.

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<p>Economics doesn't view it as an invasion. -_- </p>

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They still need to follow a prescribed path to legal status before reaping the benefits of such. I don't see anything wrong with demanding citizenship be gained orderly instead of giving in to the present chaos.

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<p>So this boils down to the civil disobedience debate doesn't it?</p>

<p>So according to your view, unjust laws must ALWAYS be obeyed, ALL the time, no matter what they are, no matter what lives are concerned, no matter if millions are people are involved, until the laws are formally changed?</p>

<p>Ultimately, what is the Law? Does its essence come from the legal print on a document, or by a consensus among individuals to a society to agree to it? And if that consensus should disagree with the premises of a certain law (previously within the Law) even when that law remains on the books, how does that law keep its essence?</p>

<p>
Also, you're talking about the political theory of anarchy, it's not an unattractive state of affairs, especially to many libertarians, but I shan't digress. :p</p>

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Do we really want more people who have a great potential than working in McDonalds to be working blue-collar jobs?

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<p>An undocumented immigrant with a college education CANNOT LEGALLY GET A JOB AT McDONALDS or anywhere else in this country.</p>

<p>We can correct factual errors (e.g., that illegals don't pay taxes), but beyond that it's attitude and philosophy. I think it would be interesting to find out why we here hold such different views. My father grew up poor in the depression; after I graduated from high school he voted No on every school bond that appeared on the ballot. I think his selfishness arose from his starting poor and then working very hard into the middle class and wanting to keep it all. I grew up in the middle class with nary a want; I think my being socially liberal is a result. I agree with McCain on one issue, the need for a path to citizenship for current illegals.</p>

<p>If they're here illegally, do you really think that they are stupid enough to try to find a job legally? </p>

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This is false, they do not pay as much taxes as I do.

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Never mind, that's true. That's because your parents are well-off enough to be in a different tax-bracket than they are. So you're right, you do pay more than they do. But I am sure most of them pay as much as my family (of all U.S. citizens) do. </p>

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I don't see anything wrong with demanding citizenship be gained orderly instead of giving in to the present chaos.

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<p>That's why I support the DREAM Act the House of Representatives put forth (S.2205). "... a student must have been brought to the US more than 5 yrs ago when he or she was 15 years old or younger and must be able to demonstrate good moral character. Under the DREAM Act, once such a student graduates from high school, he or she would be permitted to apply for conditional status which would authorize up to 6 years of legal residence. During the 6-year period, the student would be required to graduate from a 2-year college, complete two years of a 4 year college, or serve in the military for at least 2 years. ** Permanent residence would be granted at the end of the 6-year period if the student has met these requirements and has continued to maintain good moral character. **" -- "DREAM Act, Basic Information" National Immigration Law Center</p>

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I don't think it's appropriate for the interests of citizens/legal immigrants to be subordinated to the interests of people invading or contry (sic) illegally.

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Invading the United States?! Interests of legal residents subordinated to the interests of "invaders"?! If it weren't for the Chinese, this country would not have railroad tracks! The Chinese were not invaders. They came into this country because Americans wanted them to come, wanted their cheap labor, and once United States did not need their cheap labor anymore, they started to pass xenophobic laws. Same thing with the Japanese. </p>

<p>This country has a nasty streak with xenophobia and foreigners. This is the 21st century. Isn't it time to realize that our country was founded by people who invaded these land? Isn't it time to realize that a human being is a human being and he or she deserve an education regardless of what their parents dragged them into. Why are they paying for a crime their parents committed?</p>

<p>Oops double post.. sorry (:</p>

<p>"FiveKey,</p>

<p>What are your career plans? How will you get a job in the U.S. when you graduate? Do you have fake documents (not implying, just asking)?</p>

<p>Also, can you expand on what you mean by "social suicide" if you were to return to Korea? I have known Americans who would love to live and work overseas but cannot get the proper visas or jobs with American companies that would enable them to do so. You would be at an advantage here."</p>

<p>In all honesty, I have no idea. The fact that I am an undocumented immigrant citizen was mentioned to me in my junior year (around a year and a half ago). In an instant, I felt different from others. For now, the only important thing is that I do get into an institution of higher education and receive education/training. The cliche saying "knowledge is power" is truly right. A lot of people who work at my high school have been generous and have helped me get into the university of my choice. I'm sure there will be other people in my future university that will be willing to help me with my problems. I don't have fake documents, but if I needed to earn some money, I would probably be a private tutor during my college years.</p>

<p>By social suicide, I mean a lot of things, but it's too difficult to explain. Simply put, American born Koreans tend to look down upon newly immigrated Koreans due to their inability to speak fluent English, as well as other shortcomings. I for one don't participate in that, but if I were to go to Korea, the converse would happen as well. It is very easy from the way one speaks Korean to see if one has been living in Korea or America. Korean people in Korea tend to look down upon American born Korean people. They believe that a person who speaks too much English is harboring an elitist attitude. Basically, if I were to go to Korea right now, people would take my very informal Korean as an insult, would never hire me, and talk trash about me wherever I go. You can probably guess the other parts of the "social suicide" that I've mentioned. Basically, it would be impossible for me to return to Korea and live a normal life. If I had returned when I was a very little child, I would have had a chance to be rooted in Korea, but that has not happened, and now I am rooted in America.</p>

<p>Amen to everyone who likes the AB540. California is the way to go! :)</p>

<p>P.S. As a side note, I would never submit to working in a menial job. No matter what, I'd find a way to legally work in a higher tier job that would fully utilize my knowledge.</p>

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An undocumented immigrant with a college education CANNOT LEGALLY GET A JOB AT McDONALDS or anywhere else in this country.

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<p>Doesn't matter, many employers will turn a blind eye anyway.</p>

<p>I can see it now ... instead of raiding an orchard out in California, Immigration Services will be raiding a corps of engineers...</p>

<p>"Interests of legal residents subordinated to the interests of "invaders"?! If it weren't for the Chinese, this country would not have railroad tracks! "
You do understand that that immigration occurred at a different time and different circumstances, right? And that those immigrants and their descendants assimilated.</p>

<p>"Doesn't matter, many employers will turn a blind eye anyway"</p>

<p>Not the kind who offer benefits an a leg-up to the middle class. It's wonderful that you can read and repeat facts from others' works, but it's very clear that the real world is a foreign place for you. College will be a wonderful thing. I hope you gain wisdom and comprehension.</p>

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If they're here illegally, do you really think that they are stupid enough to try to find a job legally?

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<p>I don't make assumptions about peoples' intelligence when I have never met them. But I do think it is "stupid" to argue that providing a college degree to undocumented immigrants will enable them to "contribute more to this country" or attain careers better than McDonald's workers (your example), when they cannot legally be hired by any employer in the U.S. Unless the laws change between now and graduation, they will either need to return to their country of citizenship in order to get that high-powered career, or work illegally (via false documents or an employer willing to risk criminal prosecution for them) and hope that they can indefinitely evade detection.</p>

<p>It is estimated that 63,000--65,000 undocumented high school students PER YEAR, graduate in the United States. This is NOT a small issue.</p>

<p>Their right to public education up to age 18, has been affirmed by the US Supreme Court. Unless laws change that decision, they will have a continued right to that education. However, they are not eligible for federal financial aid, not being citizens, therefore they are in effect REQUIRED to get an education until age 18, and then FORBIDDEN to continue their education (except in some states). </p>

<p>Many youth did not have any choice about coming to this country. It was a decision their parents made--see the stories on this post, toddlers being carried thru the desert, families who flew in and entered with legal visitors' visas and then stayed, various means. Not every immigrant "jumped the fence." And youth generally do not have a choice about where their families locate (though they certainly have to live with the consequences).</p>

<p>The wage differential between the USA and many Caribbean and Latin American companies is something like this: as if Canada was offering jobs that paid $70 an hour! You can BET we would be flocking to Canada to pursue that kind of wage, or sending our youth there, for that kind of opportunity (that figure is from Time magazine, sometime in the last 2 years). It's a no-brainer!</p>

<p>There have been moves to close the public school system to undocumented students in various cities--LA, Chicago I think, for instance. The POLICE DEPARTMENTS of those cities strongly OPPOSED those moves, as it would have been a huge population management and enforcement issue for them to deal with a large youth population not in school and not employed. Google the issue on the Internet and you can find more information about this (that is how I know--never would have occurred to me to think of that factor). (And this is not meant to be a racist comment--I would posit that if the teens of any of the poshest suburbs of our nation were not in school or not employed, there would also be management and enforcement issues).</p>

<p>"Going back and entering the USA properly" is not a particularly simple issue. First of all there is the cost of a plane ticket, to be paid for with low under-the-table wages, and it is no longer cheap to fly, anywhere. (Clearly there are those who do not enter by plane, but in those cases as well, returning is not cheap). </p>

<p>More important, there are yearly visa and immigration quotas imposed on a number of other countries--so if you are from a country that is under quota limitations, it might be 8--10 YEARS before you received a visa to return to the USA. What does that look like for a 7 year old, or a 17 year old--or anyone, eager to move forward in their life? Check out the list of countries that have quota restriction on the Internet--it's an interesting picture of who our government has deemed more or less "desirable." Or maybe it was just random?</p>

<p>There are various ways that the above-mentioned high school graduates can become legal residents and eventually citizens, if they so choose (and then employable like the rest of us). They can be sponsored by family members, as described above, if family members themselves are legal residents, citizens, and adults. There are waiting periods in every case--legal residency, wait 2-3 years, sponsor next person, who waits 2-3 years, becomes a legal resident, sponsors next person, and so forth. Minor children can be sponsored with their parents, but if children turn 18 during the process, they must be sponsored as an adult and the 2-3 year waiting period is in effect. They can get married--heck, people got married in the 60's to avoid the Vietnam draft, it has been done before. They can be sponsored by anyone(legal) who is willing to vouch for their economic care until they themselves become legal residents and can work legally. Any volunteers? Who wouldn't want to give a leg up to someone who showed initiative, ambition, and persistence?</p>

<p>My opinion (not a factor, but a perspective to consider) is that many immigrants have shown a high degree if initiative, persistence, and desire--and this is JUST the sort of citizens that our country needs. Active, pro-active citizens contribute much to our country. And part of who we are as a nation, I believe, is due to the pro-active immigrants who for centuries who had the courage to let go of all that was familiar, to grasp a dream of something better--pilgrims in 1620 to doctoral students in 2008.</p>

<p>I should also have mentioned that the waiting time and the underfunded government system that deals with all this, means that there is an excruciatingly long time lag for becoming legal, as referred to briefly in other posts on this thread. This is another factor which makes this a complex problem, not easily dismissed or solved.</p>

<p>Look, I am beyond sympathetic and respectful, which is why I spend so much time helping illegal immigrants to learn to read. However, I don't think legalizing or providing amnesty is the answer. These hardworking, aspiring people should be offering their skills and work ethic to their own countries. We should not support corrupt governments on the backs of American taxpayers and the poor in their own countries. We need to support enforcement of laws that will encourage illegal immigrants to return home and make better lives in their countries and to elevate their communities. I notice that no one has addressed my point about the families left behind. It's time for the governments of affected countries to step up. There is no excuse for not closing the border.</p>

<p>"We should not support corrupt governments on the backs of American taxpayers"</p>

<p>This more properly applies to Washington DC than Mexico City.</p>

<p>"This more properly applies to Washington DC than Mexico City."</p>

<p>Not at all. Sniping does not fact make.</p>

<p>@Bay I believe if an illeagal person is able to find a job and the employer is willing to sponsor him that person can become naturalized. However, willing employers are usually found at those jobs which require college degrees.</p>

<p>"We can either chose to see where the problem is REALLY coming from or we can continue to divide one another. Oh wait let me stop before someone calls me a communist. Ridiculous."</p>

<p>The problem is the governments who refuse to provide minimal quality of life for its little, brown people (and it is racially motivated), forces them to risk their lives and separate their families, and then builds prosperity for the chosen few with the money sent by those poor people. It's people like YOU who are not friends to the people who are being used and abused. How many do you know, personally? How can you ignore their wish to make their lives at home with the families and cultres? Coming here, for many illegals, is the measure of last resort, not an affirmative choice. They are shoed away like stray dogs by their own governments. That is to whom the outrage should be directed. Ignoring the open border is good for no one.</p>