Undocumented Students Denied College Admissions: What Do You Think

Applying to College
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However, I don't think legalizing or providing amnesty is the answer. These hardworking, aspiring people should be offering their skills and work ethic to their own countries. We should not support corrupt governments on the backs of American taxpayers and the poor in their own countries.

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<p>Ultimately in the long-run, people make an economy.</p>

<p>Economically speaking, I don't see how making the supposed "original" nation help them incurs any more global net benefit than to have them here. A poor, hardworking individual is always a benefit, not a liability. The point of economic subsidies is to provide public goods and to provide corrections for spillover benefits. More immigrants mean a larger investment, but also a larger rate of return. </p>

<p>It is like demanding that the birth mother who gave her daughter up for adoption suddenly pay for that daughter's college expenses. Perhaps it should be treated like how colleges treat kids with noncustodial parents -- if said parents haven't been in the child's life for a dozen years, why bring them back into the picture by making them pay the financial aid? </p>

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They are shoed away like stray dogs by their own governments. That is to whom the outrage should be directed.

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<p>The reason to provide welfare or other equivalents of aid and redistribution, is not as a moral obligation, but as an economic decision to maximise future production. It is "get onto your feet" aid. </p>

<p>And so if the rich in those countries are blind to the benefits of long-term sponsorship of the education and development of the poor, then ultimately they lose. </p>

<p>We should be angry at their myopia, and perhaps we feel pinched because the capital resources the rich over there would have is not available to us, but if the hospitals are overcrowded now, not opening the borders would prevent 25,000 immigrants from becoming doctors every year (after some point in the future, say).</p>

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<p>"The reason to provide welfare or other equivalents of aid and redistribution, is not as a moral obligation, but as an economic decision to maximise future production. It is "get onto your feet" aid. "</p>

<p>It should be coming from their own governments so they can stay in their own homes, which is what many want. When you grow up you will understand.</p>

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<p>"When you grow up you will understand."</p>

<p>Insults are not necessary. It can work both ways: "When you grow up you will become embittered and selfish."</p>

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<p>You don't have to like the law, but it is to be respected. Just because you feel it is unjust is not a valid reason to wantonly ignore it or break it. </p>

<p>We have due process in this country to change and amend laws that citizens want changed. But first you have to be a citizen. People who are here legally vote, they choose representatives to legislate on behalf of their interests, they lobby, they petition, they build coalitions, etc. They do not simply ignore the law and do whatever they please because they don't personally agree. In my view, it is impossible for illegals to justify having citizen's rights based a moral high ground when they simultaneously disregard and disrespect basic laws and due process. The latter completely undermines any kind of moral or ethical position.</p>

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<p>tanveer,</p>

<p>Yes, it is possible to obtain legal status through employment, but it is lengthy complex process that is unlikely to be immediately helpful to job-seeking undocumented college grads.</p>

<p>Immigration</a> through Employment</p>

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<p>As an immigration attorney I have been reading this thread with interest. Stories like those told by FiveKey and pi<em>is</em>exactly_3 are very familiar to me, but no less heartbreaking. Unfortunately, the xenophobia expressed by some in this forum is also too familiar, though perhaps a little surprising in a forum dedicated to higher education!</p>

<p>We are heading towards a presidential election in November -- when was the last time Obama, Clinton or McCain mentioned what they were going to do specifically to fix the broken immigration system in this country? No surprise that it is not on anyone's front burner, since undocumented people cannot vote!</p>

<p>What happened to the DREAM Act? Why did it just fizzle out? Could it be that the vocal, conservative, anti-immigration right exerts just enough pressure on members of congress to keep this legislation on simmer for the past 7 years? The DREAM Act would solve the immigration problem for students like FiveKey and pi<em>is</em>exactly_3. These are two of about 65,000 kids annually who graduate from high school in the US and then cannot go on to college because they are undocumented. These are kids who were brought to the US illegally (or brought legally but overstayed) when they were little, grew up here, went to school here, and are now finding out they cannot qualify for federally funded student assistance, driver's licenses, social security numbers, passports, etc. </p>

<p>The DREAM Act would allow undocumented high school graduates to apply for permanent resident status on their own. This would correct the bizarre perpetuation of negative consequences for these young people which occur because their parents made decisions many years ago to bring them or keep them in the US unlawfully. With permanent resident status, the door is opened to US citizenship eligibility, and in the interim, these young people would be eligible to go to college, work legally, and begin a pathway to a solid future. Part of the resulting benefit would accrue also to the American society, since we will all benefit from producing a more educated cohort of young people.</p>

<p>OK, no DREAM Act for now or the near future. What are the alternatives for FiveKey, pi<em>is</em>exactly_3, and others like them? I think "pi" mentioned having a younger US born sibling nearing the age of 18. Yes, that sibling will be able to file a relative petition for "pi", but do you folks know what the waiting time is for a Mexican immigrant coming on a sibling petition? For a Mexican sibling, it is 14 years! For a Filipino waiting on a sibling petition, it is 22+ years! For everyone else, it is a mere 11 years! Obviously a sibling petition is not any kind of solution for "pi" or others similarly situated. If "pi" can manage to remain in the shadows for the next 14 years, once the petition ripens and a visa is available, he/she would have to return to Mexico for a consular interview in Ciudad Juarez. But, bad news again, once he/she leaves the US, he/she cannot come back for 10 years. That is the punishment under the current system for being present in the US unlawfully for more than one year -- once you leave for any reason, you cannot come back for 10 years. Waivers are available, but less than 50% are approved, and only on a showing of "extreme hardship" to a US citizen or permanent resident parent or spouse.</p>

<p>So what is the alternative for the undocumented student? What a waste to force these young people to work as bussers for less than minimum wage, without any benefits including health or disability benefits. How can they survive if they DON'T obtain some kind of fake documents? When you fill out an I-9 form, if you check the box saying "US citizen or national" all you have to show is a photo ID (say a driver license) and a SS card. What is the possible outcome? It's called the "permanent bar." Falsely stating that you are a US citizen on a college application or I-9 form can result in an immigration judge finding that you are permanently barred from ever obtaining any lawful status in the US -- no waiver available. </p>

<p>OK, so why not just apply for a green card? That takes us back to the beginning -- there must be a basis to qualify for the green card which is either a family petition, a labor petition, or the diversity lottery. All require that the person either be outside the US or if in the US, must be in a lawful status. So when people cannot get green cards legally, they go buy them. Surely you have all read stories occasionally about current or former immigration officials getting busted for selling green cards. It happens more than you think... and of course, there is always the street vendor.</p>

<p>The immigration system is broken in many aspects. Family values? Hah! If you are a permanent resident of the US and have a child living outside the US, you can petition your child. The waiting time for a child under age 21 is 6 years for Mexico, and 5 years for all other countries. If the son or daughter is single and over 21, the wait is 16 years for Mexico, 11 for the Philippines and 9 for everyone else. That over 21 year old child can never marry or the visa petition automatically invalidates. So that's one reason why we have people sneaking across the border -- the waiting times are ridiculously long for families to be split apart. There has been some talk in Congress lately regarding making more visas available for spouses and under 21 year old children of legal residents to shorten the waiting periods for these folks. If this happens, most likely the new visas for spouses and kids of permanent residents will come from elimination of the other categories -- siblings and adult children of US citizens and adult unmarried children of permanent residents. (There is no waiting period for spouses and minor children of US citizens.)</p>

<p>"Zoosermom" said undocumented Mexicans and Guatemalans are taking away menial jobs from "the young black men here in NYC who can't get those first jobs." I think this is a common misperception -- that the 12 million undocumented immigrants in the US are all Mexicans or Central Americans. Nope -- there are more "undocumented" Europeans and Canadians and Asians and Indians in the US. The largest source of undocumented immigrants in the US is people who came in legally as non-immigrants and then overstayed. If you came in legally with a visa or visa waiver and overstayed, it is much easier to obtain lawful status by marrying a US citizen. For someone who came to the US illegally across the border, marrying a US citizen now does not help, because to get that green card, they have to go out to consular process and face the 10-year bar against returning legally. </p>

<p>Until recently, we had a different law regarding entry to the US depending on whether you came across the Canadian (white) border or the Mexican (brown) border. Canadians were presumed to have entered legally, whereas anyone coming across the Mexican border were (and still are) presumed to have entered illegally. As for taking menial jobs "away" from unemployed US citizens, please. Someone tell those unemployed folks what happens in the US Mexican border region when it is produce picking time -- Border Patrol agents turn a blind eye to migrant farm workers who come across the border to pick sometimes for less than a dollar an hour. If they don't come and pick, there won't be any pickers -- they come and pick and then when the season ends, the Border Patrol invites them to leave again. It is a necessity ever since the braseros program ended decades ago. We need another migrant/guest worker program. That's a non-immigrant work program that lets needed workers come in temporarily, do seasonal work and then go back again until the next season. The last time we had a legalization program for agricultural workers was in 1986.</p>

<p>Zoosermom also came up with this humdinger: "These hardworking, aspiring people should be offering their skills and work ethic to their own countries. We should not support corrupt governments on the backs of American taxpayers and the poor in their own countries. We need to support enforcement of laws that will encourage illegal immigrants to return home." Wow. </p>

<p>Well first off, about "supporting corrupt governments on the backs of American taxpayers and the poor in their own countries," this is exactly why at least 500,000 Guatemalans, Hondurans, Salvadorans and Nicaraguans fled to the United States in the 1980s and 1990s. US taxpayer dollars, US military advisors, the CIA, etc ad nauseum were sent into these countries to protect the interests of United Fruit and the wealthy landowners and the corrupt governments. US taxpayer dollars and military advisors provided training and supervision in "counter-insurgency" techniques (translation: scorched earth programs, torture, extra-judicial executions). In my opinion these facts alone justify a new amnesty program as a way of beginning to right the wrongs of past US foreign policy. The last amnesty program in the US allowed only people who came before Jan. 1, 1982 to legalize. That's more than 26 years ago! </p>

<p>Secondly, with respect to undocumented high school students "returning home" -- they ARE home! The US is the only home they have ever known. What "skills" would any high school student who does not even speak/read/write his parents' native language fluently be taking "home" anyway?</p>

<p>A student living in the US as an undocumented immigrant is not an international student. That term applies to foreign students outside the US seeking to come in as F-1 visa holders. They are subject to all kinds of rules and restrictions including that they have to provide proof that private funding sources are paying their tuitions. </p>

<p>Here's an interesting recent article about elite South Korean prep schools prepping their students to get into US Ivy League schools and doing so with great success: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/world/asia/27seoul.html?_r=1&incamp=article_popular_3&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/world/asia/27seoul.html?_r=1&incamp=article_popular_3&oref=slogin&lt;/a>. Tuition for these schools is up to $15,000 per student per year, or about half the average salary of a South Korean college graduate. So it seems obvious that these schools are serving the wealthiest, most privileged students in South Korea. I really have no idea whether that is at all representative of international students in general. </p>

<p>Undocumented children growing up in the US do have a constitutional right to a public education through the high school level. After that? The system is definitely broken. Stop-gap fixes like the USCIS telling colleges that they are not required to investigate or report immigrant status of applicants or students in the US only perpetuate the broken system.</p>

<p>So, just the opinion of one person who happens to work in the immigration field. None of what I have said should be construed as legal advice to any individual person.</p>

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<p>For someone who claims to be an immigration attorney, it is surprising that you say that undocumented immigrants can't go to college (Five and pi) and can't get driver licenses.</p>

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<p>Hear, hear ... </p>

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<p>So it's a cultural, not an economic issue? Why then shouldn't we in the meanwhile let each person make his choice, since in the long run we get the economic benefit? </p>

<p>Economically speaking, the vast majority don't bring economic liabilities with them, so what difference is there economically between an individual raised in the US as an undocumented citizen and being born into the US? It's no more than if 5% of Americans suddenly decided to have extra children. I bet we should start taxing couples if they decide to have more than 2.1 children.</p>

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<p>Thanks for totally evading my question. I asked you -- </p>

<p>**
So according to your view, unjust laws must ALWAYS be obeyed, ALL the time, no matter what they are, no matter what lives are concerned, no matter if millions of people are involved, until the laws are formally changed?**</p>

<p>Please answer.</p>

<p>I am drawing a distinction between the Law of the social contract, and the law as it may be written on paper, which often lags behind that consensus of society which forms social contract Law. That is why Rousseau wished to particularly encourage more participatory and more direct forms of democracy as representative democracy often allows greater disparities between a government and the consensus of the social contractants.</p>

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They do not simply ignore the law and do whatever they please because they don't personally agree. In my view, it is impossible for illegals to justify having citizen's rights based a moral high ground when they simultaneously disregard and disrespect basic laws and due process.

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<p>Huh....</p>

<p>They haven't broken due process. They broke a law that would be unjust and irrational under a Lockean-Rousseaunian social contract. By the very definition of just governance, the right to self-rule and self-determination, that law should not even have jurisdiction in the first place. Thus by this definition such undocumented individuals are <em>not</em> breaking the rule of law especially if they have been constructive and orderly contributors to society! </p>

<p>For those who say that perfectly orderly individuals are being unlawful and wantonly disrespectful of due process because they initially got here by undocumented means, I might as well extend the logic and say that anyone whose birth was never documented legally aren't individuals .... so they deserve no human rights. I mean, if a repressive genocidal government in Africa refuses to grant babies of a certain race birth certs, technically the genocidal government can get away with butchering them because they are legally not humans amirite???</p>

<p>"You downright dirty evil scumbag criminal .... you broke the law when you couldn't even walk!"</p>

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<p>"Thus by this definition such undocumented individuals are <em>not</em> breaking the rule of law especially if they have been constructive and orderly contributors to society!"</p>

<p>So would I be correct to assume your support of amnesty for "illegal" immigrants is contingent on whether they have been paying taxes?</p>

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<p>Whether they <em>would</em> pay federal income tax.</p>

<p>This is easy to correct for. Put the difference on their financial aid.</p>

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<p>So you can be a contributing member of society and not pay taxes? Some illegals do pay taxes I think. I would guess most do not.</p>

<p>Also, assuming that someone without the proper paperwork (i.e., an illegal immigrant) is not breaking the rule or the spirit of the law by not paying taxes, is it fair to prosecute U.S. citizens for not paying taxes? What if U.S. citizens decided to renounce their citizenship and continue living in the U.S. only as an illegal.</p>

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<p>Besides my first proposal ... "This is easy to correct for. Put the difference on their financial aid", there is the solution of simply giving them a legal channel in which to file for taxes. Give the employer better means of making automatic deductions off the salary to the government for such individuals.</p>

<p>I don't get why people have to be nitpicky about this ... it's like the solution stares you in the face.</p>

<p>Besides, the fact that you say, "don't pay taxes" when the only tax being absconded upon is US federal income tax makes me annoyed. Many are failing to a pay a <em>portion</em> of their taxes, which itself is a <em>portion</em> of one's overall economic contribution.</p>

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<p>I'm not being nitpicky. You had just stated that illegal immigrants basically acted like full-fledged citizens except for the paperwork.</p>

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<p>"Some illegals do pay taxes I think. I would guess most do not."</p>

<p>How can they avoid paying property tax (via their rent payments) and sales tax (whenever they shop)? They avoid income tax by having such low wages, along with the "legal" poor.</p>

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<p>"They avoid income tax by having such low wages."</p>

<p>I thought galoisen said there were a lot of engineers who were undocumented since many companies turn a blind eye to whether they hire illegals, so much so that enforcing immigration policy would mean they would have to raid these engineering firms.</p>

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<p>"They avoid income tax by having such low wages, along with the "legal" poor."</p>

<p>The legal poor have to pay income tax.</p>

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<p>"Insults are not necessary. "</p>

<p>It was NOT an insult, but rather a statement of fact based upon the poster's history and youth. Do NOT ever impute motive to me.</p>

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<p>""Zoosermom" said undocumented Mexicans and Guatemalans are taking away menial jobs from "the young black men here in NYC who can't get those first jobs." I think this is a common misperception "
You are the one wallowing in misconception. That is the FACT here in NYC. It is also the fact, as I posted, that many illegal immigrants would have preferred to make their lives at home and many families left behind would prefer to have their loved ones with them. You can not honestly dispute that, but the truth doesn't further your agenda.</p>

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<p>"So it's a cultural, not an economic issue? Why then shouldn't we in the meanwhile let each person make his choice, since in the long run we get the economic benefit?"</p>

<p>Because they don't HAVE the choice to go home and have a prosperous life. That is what I object to, the forcing, by corrupt governments of vulnerable people to undertake the dangerous migration. As far as our "immigration attorney" is concerned, the reason I referenced Mexicans and Guatemalans is that I can speak for those groups after having worked closely with them for more than 20 years. I don't speak for groups of which I have no personal knowledge. But that attorney should feel free to make assumptions and presumptions.</p>

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<p>Don't worry vossron, I didn't take it as an insult. :) </p>

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The legal poor have to pay income tax.

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<p>Is it a significant tax?</p>

<p>Again, why not just charge the difference on the financial aid (since you have to declare income for it)? </p>

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I thought galoisen said there were a lot of engineers

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<p>Not a lot as it stands. </p>

<p>But you can easily account for the shortages zoosermom talks about (which are due to allocative inefficiency), by gee -- letting deserving individuals get degrees for those fields and bringing the cost of healthcare, etc. down?</p>

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You had just stated that illegal immigrants basically acted like full-fledged citizens except for the paperwork.

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<p>For the most part. I don't see the missed tax as a super-grave, irredeemable issue that can't be easily fixed. Maybe others do...</p>

<p>We're talking about solvency, right?</p>