<p>Pretend to be ignorant of what laws are and employ all the philosophical banter you like - it only serves to further undermine your position. Call those who refuse to agree with people entering the country illegally xenophobes and unjust. Whatever makes you sleep better at night, lol. Within this particular context, however, there is no justification for entering a country with the deliberate intent of violating its laws and existing as a parasite on society. Illegals will never gain acceptance and respect as equal citizens under such conditions. There are better ways.</p>
<p>"existing as a parasite on society"</p>
<p>Even though the IRS says this is false, some persist in spreading this lie, thus discrediting anything else valuable they might have contributed.</p>
<p>"Even though the IRS says this is false, some persist in spreading this lie, thus discrediting anything else valuable they might have contributed"</p>
<p>The IRS doesn't factor in the medical costs and the costs of education and crime to localities so you stop spreading YOUR lies, ok.</p>
<p>Queens</a> Tribune's 2006 Immigrant's Guide</p>
<p>Seems undocumented are very entitled to many services we are paying for, no wonder NY state is the most heavily taxed in the nation.</p>
<p>"the medical costs and the costs of education and crime to localities"</p>
<p>"entitled to many services we are paying for"</p>
<p>These costs are also borne by the property and sales taxes which illegals do pay. No lie! :)</p>
<p>The IRS looks at federal taxes which neither the legal nor illegal poor pay. No lie! :)</p>
<p>"These costs are also borne by the property and sales taxes which illegals do pay. No lie! "</p>
<p>Lie!!! Not even close. Thus the bankruptcies.
At least be honest in your argument for heaven's sake. Unless you have no honest, valid argument.
"The IRS looks at federal taxes"</p>
<p>You've heard of state and local taxes, right?</p>
<p>Z, can you explain how illegals are avoiding paying property taxes when they pay rent to their landlords? How do they avoid paying sales taxes when they shop? Are you saying that legals and illegals who don't make enough to pay federal income tax must pay state and local income taxes? Perhaps that is unique to your area.</p>
<p>"These are two of about 65,000 kids annually who graduate from high school in the US and then cannot go on to college because they are undocumented. These are kids who were brought to the US illegally (or brought legally but overstayed) when they were little, grew up here, went to school here, and are now finding out they cannot qualify for federally funded student assistance, driver's licenses, social security numbers, passports, etc."</p>
<p>He is speaking the truth though. Out of 7 of my private school applications, 4 of them called me one day and told me that they cannot accept my application due to my status here in the U.S. I did not lie on my applications. I admitted on all my applications that I am an undocumented immigrant student. The thing that was a bit odd was that they did not even refund my application fees when they did never even bother to read the rest of it. Currently I qualify for no federally funded student assistance at all. Therefore, my father is planning to pay an estimated ~$50,000 a year for Boston University. He simply tells me not to worry about the money issue, but to simply focus on my future. However, I'm currently appealing my UCLA decision as it would be the best financial option to me. Although I don't have a social security number, I do think I can obtain a drivers license if I went to the state of Washington however...</p>
<p>"Secondly, with respect to undocumented high school students "returning home" -- they ARE home! The US is the only home they have ever known. What "skills" would any high school student who does not even speak/read/write his parents' native language fluently be taking "home" anyway?</p>
<p>A student living in the US as an undocumented immigrant is not an international student. That term applies to foreign students outside the US seeking to come in as F-1 visa holders. They are subject to all kinds of rules and restrictions including that they have to provide proof that private funding sources are paying their tuitions."</p>
<p>I'm glad that you realize that fact! A lot of people seem to think that people in my position can simply return to our home countries... but it would be extremely difficult to live in our "home" countries.</p>
<p>To private universities, I am considered an international student. However, I am considered a California resident to public schools in California. The AB540 is truly amazing. :)</p>
<p>Currently, I'm just hoping that one day my skills will be extremely valued that I could gain some help with my status. I do have two younger siblings who were born in the U.S., but I don't really want to rely on that kind of "trick" in order to gain lawful residence. I'd rather prefer that I achieve something so amazing that the U.S. would want me as a naturalized citizen. Of course, this is all high hopes and dreams, but who's to say that one can't dream? :)</p>
<p>a neighboring town of ours is rampant with illegals renting homes, basement apartments.</p>
<p>One home had 17 children coming out of it every morning to attend school.</p>
<p>The owner(slumlord) of the property was paying 5,000 in school property taxes. Now I seriously doubt the school districts burden of educating the 17 children that is tagged at 16,000 per child is being met by the 5,000 nor anywhere near the taxes an illegal alien adult will pay in consumer goods.
16,000 X 17=172,000</p>
<p>That is a serious financial strain on local districts tax base.
Then I wont go into the crossing county lines for a better education that is also rampant within the local community. Above district had to hire retired detective @ 75,000 a year to investigate illegally/over flowing homes to curtail the financial strain and strain on services it is creating. If one does not live in a hotbed of illegal immigrants it is not evident. Go to neighborhoods in which it is and ask the locals.</p>
<p>Yes, parasites. It sounds harsh, but that's what it is. Without the ability to fully participate in this society, illegals live on the fringes rather than as fully engaged citizens. They benefit from access to public services and institutions simply by virtue of the fact they are here. And despite accusations to the contrary, the US is not a draconian society that ignores suffering. Thus, people who are here legally serve as hosts by bearing the costs, economic and otherwise, of caring for those who have no legal standing in this country. </p>
<p>I understand that suffering goes on in many places around the world, and indeed, the US has taken those who have been persecuted, or who just want to live in a free society. I have no issues with that whatsoever. My issue is with people who believe they are entitled to just show up by hook or by crook, subvert our laws and civil codes, and do whatever they please here with no legal indoctrination. Crashing a society's infrastructure by chaotically infusing it with populations it cannot support without order diminishes the quality of life for all. I know there are unique, perhaps mitigating circumstances regarding some, but in general, this is what's happening on a large scale. I am not a protectionist or xenophobe, but I believe in law, civil order, and democracy. There are ways to do things in a society that helps it grow, improve, and serve its people better, even help others, that do not simultaneously erode it through disorder.</p>
<p><em>sigh</em></p>
<p>The point of open immigration isn't to relieve suffering -- it's to uphold the basic principles of a just social contract as outlined by Locke and Rousseau.
Social contract -- you know, that basic founding principle of the country and the central theme of the Declaration of Independence.</p>
<p>Again, what's the point of education or (sound) welfare? It's not to relieve suffering -- it's to make an economic return. The beneficiary of the return (greater society) will not change whether you invest in an undocumented migrant or invest in a child born in a poor American household. It just so happens that those same economic returns create the ability to relieve suffering, create happiness, in the process. </p>
<p>
[quote]
My issue is with people who believe they are entitled to just show up by hook or by crook, subvert our laws and civil codes, and do whatever they please here with no legal indoctrination.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You keep on asserting this as axiom even though it has been challenged. </p>
<p>"Do whatever they please with no legal indoctrination ...."</p>
<p>Please, take your xenophobia somewhere else if you're not at least going to pay attention to arguments about the nature of law. </p>
<p>It's not "showing up by hook or crook ..." -- it's the principle of a just social contract, which can be elaborated upon as I have done numerous times throughout this thread.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Crashing a society's infrastructure by chaotically infusing it with populations it cannot support without order diminishes the quality of life for all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"Populations it cannot support"....?</p>
<p>AGAIN, let's take a look at the merit of your argument. If the birth rate of non-immigrant American couples were to increase to a comparable amount (let's say, 3% of the population decides to have an extra baby), would you complain and ask for the government to impose mandatory family planning controls?</p>
<p>The basic problem is that it puts a strain on capital resources, but with sufficient time the returns will be even greater. That's the point of government intervention (which is not the best measure by libertarian standards but in terms of economics, their effects can be analysed as such.</p>
<p>
[quote]
They benefit from access to public services and institutions simply by virtue of the fact they are here.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You see education as a donation .... </p>
<p>But the point of education and public goods is to correct for spillover benefits. You know, because the members who receive them eventually give back as well ... (lowering the marginal costs for skilled labour, increasing marginal product of labour, etc.) </p>
<p>Economically, how does national origin matter? They are <em>members</em> of that economy. They <em>contribute</em> to that economy. De facto, they have become part of the fabric of the contract, as it would be in any just social contract. </p>
<p>From an economic and a common sense POV, the undocumented students that are ready for college are economic assets to the country, not economic liabilities. Please tell me how they are creating rampant disorder. </p>
<p>Tell me, what constitutes valid membership in the social contract? An individual's interactions and relationships with other members of the contract, or a piece of paper? Order creates what is reflected on the paper, not the other way round.</p>
<p>"Z, can you explain how illegals are avoiding paying property taxes when they pay rent to their landlords?"</p>
<p>If the landlord pays the property taxes, then some of the rent is paid in property taxes, however, when you have a large number of young men (like the house next door to me), paying small amounts of money, the tax paid is negligible. You're just full of nonsense, Vossrun. I choose to assist individual illegal immigrants because I'm a pragmatist and want to make the best of the situation, but you could at least be honest about the hardships imposed by some illegal immigrants. Your arguments can not be taken seriously.</p>
<p>" Are you saying that legals and illegals who don't make enough to pay federal income tax must pay state and local income taxes? Perhaps that is unique to your area."</p>
<p>What I was saying was that you were squawking about the IRS and I was pointing out that the IRS is not the only taxing agency.</p>
<p>"These are kids who were brought to the US illegally (or brought legally but overstayed) when they were little, grew up here, went to school here, and are now finding out they cannot qualify for federally funded student assistance, driver's licenses, social security numbers, passports, etc"</p>
<p>You don't know that. How dare you presume to speak of an entire group of people? Not every illegal who wants to go to college came as a small child. I tutor many who came here in their late teens because there is an entire network engaged in sucking the US dry.</p>
<p>He is speaking the truth though. Out of 7 of my private school applications, 4 of them called me one day and told me that they cannot accept my application due to my status here in the U.S. I did not lie on my applications."</p>
<p>You are in illegal status. You are not a legal resident or a citizen and, therefore, are not deserving of the benefits of legality. I ask you what does your country owe you and what do you owe to the US?</p>
<p>Do other countries have an open immigration policy?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Currently I qualify for no federally funded student assistance at all. Therefore, my father is planning to pay an estimated ~$50,000 a year for Boston University. He simply tells me not to worry about the money issue, but to simply focus on my future
[/quote]
</p>
<p>At least you are more fortunate than the children of wealthy parents who won't or can't pay for their education. Those students don't qualify for financial aid either, so they will not get to go to BC. At least they can legally get a job at McDonalds, though.</p>
<p>"Do other countries have an open immigration policy?"</p>
<p>I don't know about every country in the world, but I can tell you that Mexico is ruthless in enforcing its borders that don't connect with the US.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A lot of people seem to think that people in my position can simply return to our home countries... but it would be extremely difficult to live in our "home" countries.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Fivekey,</p>
<p>Thank you for sharing your experience, it is very interesting. I have question for you: Why did your parents come here, when it puts you in a terrible situation? I understand why poverty-stricken people from Mexico might feel the need to migrate out of dire necessity. But your father is apparently very financially well-off if he can easily pay for your $50K/year tuition. If you are willing to share, what does he say about his motivation for coming here, and your post-graduation prospects?</p>
<p>Nope, not buying it galo, sorry. Choose any vantage point you like, but I'm not going down the "what if" or theoretical paths of libertarianism or the paradigms of economic theory with you. There is no principle or theory in this given context upon which civil disorder is appropriate or beneficial, nor can you prove that it is despite your repeated assertions. Although predicated on some fine ideas, you are substituting optimism, wishful thinking, theories, and assumptions about future outcomes for present realities. In other words, you are somewhat of a dreamer. That's not a criticism, I think it's great actually. It just doesn't make for a valid argument for the disposing of basic laws and social order. </p>
<p>What if tens of thousands of students decided to attend college the same way? What if they all just said, "Who cares about admissions? I'll just show up at Harvard, drop into whatever classes I want." They could sleep in the hallways or wherever, or just pile into the rooms of a couple of acquaintances who actually went through the trouble of being admitted, but are nonetheless sympathetic. After all, an admissions letter is just a piece of paper, it's not substantive or anything meaningful, right? All that would matter is how they interact with the other students and administators, right? Yeah, good luck with that my friend - dream on.</p>
<p>i have not read 11 pages of responses, but to answer the main question.</p>
<p>Yes i think they should have a chance. I know of a few cases similar to the few responses i have read. First of all undoc. families DO pay taxes, and believe it or not some do have social security numbers, most likely because of overstayed visas. Others i think get "dummy" numbers to file IRS taxes. When taking a college physics class in my highschool, my teacher asked students who did not have socials to see him later because he would provide "dummy" numbers, so i assume its similar.</p>
<p>Also, i bet a lot of them are very bright and intellengent but cannot do anything because of there status. Immigration reform was something not in the mind of the last presidency and if it was, nothing effective. I think granting these undocumented aliens some type of amnesty is inevitable because it is not realistic to me, for the US to send all these possibly millions of people back to their country, but the ways to going about that is a completey different story. Its pretty sad when you know people who have possibly been living here longer than some of us (who were not born here ofcourse), and they do not have good status.</p>