Universities Record Drop In Black Admissions

Parent Cafe
101

<p>
[quote]
I also have found that teacher expectations are in general lower for black students than for many other students.

[/quote]

We really saw this at our previous school. Black students were rewarded just for attending class, reinforcing the idea that they weren't capable of more. How boring and condescending to get an A just for turning a grade school level paper ( more likely a poster) in for Junior English. No wonder kids didnt see the point of attending class.
The sadly ironic thing was, these teachers saw themselves as "enlightened & liberal" and really wanted the black kids to succeed. ( Several of them were black/minority themselves and to be fair, I think they had pretty low expectations for everyone)
We changed schools to a school that has the opposite approach. It is the schools objective for everyone to take an AP class and for that to happen they need extra support beforehand. They have encouraged kids to take AP physics who at another school would get away with the min science to graduate. These kids wanted to drop the class once they saw how steep the learning curve was, but with extra support almost all of them completed it and did well.
Kids rise to our expectations, and although some kids are raised with high expectation ( like some on the boards whose parents are picking colleges when they are in 6th grade!), other parents may not even dream that there is aid available to help their kids go to college.</p>

102

<p>"It's irritating when someone from another country comes here to take advantage of our nation's educational opportunities and demands that our African American kids "stand down" because they don't measure up to someone's (someone not from the US) ideal of what they should have achieved."</p>

<p>Momsdream those are very strong, angry and misguided words.</p>

103

<p>"I am sure there are more examples of this from similar immigrants from Africa who have achieved American Dream? But do not just say that AA is right for rich or middle class AA kids? Yes it is must and necessary for poor AA americans who have 1200 score and no AP coming from a very poor school. They do deserve AA in college admission but not a preppy AA kid from middle class over a poor asian with much better academic record with 1600/800/800/800 from an poor asian or poor white kid with hardest possible course load. Just a thought."</p>

<p>I think it's important to realize that "Affirmative Action" was designed to rectify the problems that were caused by the US's longstanding history of discriminating against African Americans.</p>

<p>There are programs designed particularly to meet the needs of low income people of any race. These include EOP programs, Upward Bound, as well as general diversity programs that colleges offer.</p>

<p>A low income Asian student is not pitted against an upper income black student when it comes to admissions. That is a fallacy. Many colleges, particularly the elite colleges, want to create well balanced classes in which students represent a variety of races, socioeconomic backgrounds, countries, regions, interests. </p>

<p>Such colleges tend to get far more applications from qualified Asians of all income levels (including low income immigrants' kids) than they do from qualified African Americans of any income level. Since African Americans are at a premium, that is going to end up being more of a factor to tip a student in.</p>

<p>Where I live, for instance, about 18-20 students a year apply to my Ivy alma mater. At most typically one of these is black. This is even though blacks make up about 25% of the population in my area. About a third of the applicants are Asian, however, even though Asians are about 2% of the population in my area. </p>

<p>Each year, about 2 students are accepted into my Ivy. The majority are white males who are accepted. Blacks are accepted perhaps once every 4 years. Typically the accepted black students are bi-racial or immigrant African even though the majority of blacks in my area are not immigrants or bi-racial. About every other year, an Asian student is accepted.</p>

<p>I have not personally seen extraordinary Asian students passed over for mediocre students of other races. In general (and this has been mentioned a lot over the years on these boards), Asian students tend to have high numbers, but not to have outstanding or unusual ECs. Their ECs also tend to be very similar to other Asian students': classical music (including awards), science or math club (including awards), plus they tend to talk about and write in their essays about their experience being Asian immigrants. They plan to major in something that would put them on track for med school. </p>

<p>Elite colleges are flooded with applicants like this. Even if one were to take race completely out of the picture when it comes to admissions, many Asian/classical musician/math whizzes/immigrant kids/premed aspirants would be passed over in favor of students with other passions and talents.</p>

<p>If I were an Asian parent and I wanted my kid to go to an elite school, I would be looking for signs that the kid were interested in something like a sport, the social sciences, the humanities, and I would be encouraging my kid to run with those talents/interests that are atypical pursuits for Asians aspiring to elite colleges.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom: I agree with your last 3 paragraphs.</p>

<p>Sport may be hard though....we Asians are typically not built for that !!</p>

105

<p>Simba, there's a difference in segregating Asians into regional groups or countries and saying how many of each group there is vs. being one of 10-20 African Americans in your entire school. It's nice to be able to trace your roots back to being from this region or that country. African Americans don't have that privilege.....most have no idea where they're form because that knowledge went overboad during the middle passage.</p>

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<p>No moms dream it is entirely wrong to assume that all asians are same. My analogy is still valid.</p>

107

<p>The poor inner city black kid is still a poor inner city black kid even if s/he is in prep school on a scholarship. The dynamics outside of the school life has not changed. If the student is the child of a single working parent that must pick up/care for younger siblings or work to help the family out the situation does not change because they have been given a scholarship to an elite prep school.</p>

<p>I reason that I try to stay out of fray with these threads are because it always comes down to the same thing- some one with a higher score believes that some black kid has taken their spot when the fact is no one has a spot ANYWHERE.</p>

<p>One of the questions for the supplemental essay at Amherst asks the following:</p>

<p>“For me, ‘diversity’ is not a political slogan or a theoretical goal; it is an absolute necessity. … It is impossible for students from any particular background to engage fully the racial and ethnic dimensions of American culture in a setting that does not approximate the racial composition of the society as a whole.”
From an essay published February 26, 2003, in the Chicago Sun-Times by Frederick E. Hoxie, Amherst Class of 1969,
Amherst trustee, Swalund Professor of History, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign</p>

<p>Shouldn’t we try to make every attempt to educate our children in environments that are reflective of the world as a whole? If you got an opportunity to watch the Amherst video </p>

<p>“The Best and the Brightest </p>

<p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/merrow/tv/newshour/amherst.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pbs.org/merrow/tv/newshour/amherst.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>that gives a look at the admissions committee decision making process at Amherst, Tom Parker Dean of admissions stated </p>

<p>If you tie admission strictly to S.A.T. scores, you're going to end up with a very wealthy student body.</p>

<p>When Dean Parker was asked</p>

<p>How important is race in getting into Amherst?</p>

<p>He said: We would love to be not conscious of race for a whole number of reasons, but we are conscious of race -- race in the context of other factors. He also states the process is as far fair as they can make it, but they are thoroughly aware of the flaws in it and the degree to which they are making judgments that are open to interpretation.</p>

<p>Dean Parker is not alone in his assessment because many Deans believe that when you have diversity in schools it there is a hope that one can look at life using multiple lenses.</p>

108

<p>They just need to go to the archives in Salt Lake City ( virtually).
It is amzing the information that is there. They are determined to track everyone down!
My sister ( to get off track) has traced our tree to 14th century France but mostly she stopped with our other lineages in this country in early 1700s. So I suppose I could be a member of the DAR, wouldnt that make them shake in their boots!</p>

109

<p>EK- thanks for your insight about the situation at your school. BTW, genealogy is such a fascinating topic. I've spent considerable time at the National Archives and Church of Latter-Day Saints Family History Center. I've also got a subscription to geneology.com, which I find valuable....esp. for Census records. </p>

<p>Sybbie- Thank you for bringing us back to the bottom line....colleges want diversity!!Heck, I'm worried that my son'd ED school isn't diverse enough and he's taking a step backwards since we worked hard to move him from a very homogenous elementary school to a diverse high school. It's the only aspect of the school that doesn't sit well with me. Couple that with all of this anger over AA and I worry about his experience in such an environment. </p>

<p>I didn't see NSM's post before I posted. She articulated much better than I. I agree with everything she said and feel especially strong about her last sentence: "My guess is that as this info becomes more known, African Americans' perceptions of themselves will change, and we will realize that reading, being intelligent, etc. are in our heritage, and students will act accordingly". Excellent point NSM. I haven't given this much consideration. But, I bet this is a MAJOR issue.</p>

<p>I've had a few conversations with parents of African American students recently who have asked about my son's SAT scores. When I disclose his score they have all commented about the myth of blacks not being able to score well on the test. I have a faint memory of hearing that the test was unfair and that black students couldn't do well on it...which might leave some black students to accept a low score as opposed to retaking/prepping.</p>

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<p>momsdream:</p>

<p>I do not agree with you that I am less american than you are. My kids were being recognzied for his volunteer work by our local government. They have put more hours than I can count towrds volunteer work. My kid has published sevreal articles on importance of volunteer work and american beleif on the basis what founding fathers thought. My kids have worked in nursing home, hospitals, teen shelters, food pantries, etc.</p>

<p>Northstarmom:
Immigrants kids have their own problems; Living in two cultures one which emphasize instant gratification like having fun versus one which emphasize hard work. These kid has to work very hard to balance their life. Not an easy task for a teen year old kid who is still maturing and is loaded with harmones. </p>

<p>Sybbie:
I did not say SAT alone is aprameter of success. I must say that prep school are offering full financial aid not only to AA kids but many whites as well as asian kids as they also come from very poor backgrounds. Howvere all of these kids tend to perform well as they have no other avenue other than education to come out of poverty. There is a miscoception that asian kids are rich, there parents are very well educated. they take prep classes. Not so, Too many of us have very limited language skills. What we influence kids by saying if you want to go ahead work harder. We do raise excpectations higher and sacrfice our life and our pleasure for our kids. Is that wrong to do so tell me?</p>

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<p>Momsdream,
Re: "I've had a few conversations with parents of African American students recently who have asked about my son's SAT scores. When I disclose his score they have all commented about the myth of blacks not being able to score well on the test. I have a faint memory of hearing that the test was unfair and that black students couldn't do well on it...which might leave some black students to accept a low score as opposed to retaking/prepping."</p>

<p>Read about Dr. Jeffrey Howard and the Efficacy institute. Howard is a black Harvard-trained social psychologist who believes that the main reason that black children underperform is that African Americans tend to view educational achievement as being due to good luck/inherent talent, not hard work.</p>

<p>When it comes to things like SATs, my experience has been that most black kids, even those from highly educated homes, do no prep at all. Asian kids, including low income ones and ones who barely speak English, meanwhile are doing prep at things such as Chinese School, the culturally-based schools that, for instance, some Chinese-American kids go to on Saturdays. Affluent white students also routinely get tutors in order to get high SAT scores.</p>

<p>A few years ago, I even saw an article that said that a test prep company in Seattle offered a free SAT tutoring session to kids in a black school and next to no one showed up. That's because the parents and kids assumed the test was biased against blacks, and that doing well was simply a matter of luck.</p>

<p>I also have noticed that in schools that are overwhemingly white/Asian, SAT prep is built into the school as either a part of the classes or as an EC that many kids will sign up to do.</p>

<p>For years, I have been trying to spread to black parents the info that rigor of the curriculum, not race, is what most impacts SAT scores. Unfortunately, few seem to believe me.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, both of my kids have always done very well -- typically top 2% on standardized testing. Husband was first generationc college, went to a top academic public school, and did well on standardized testing, as did I. I know that curriculum, prepping and attitude can make a big impact on how students do on the test.</p>

112

<p>Sybbie: True, many believe that life should be looked with different lenses and racial diversity is an admirable goal.</p>

<p>But many also believe that 'racial' bump should not be just one way street. Racial bump should not be just an addtive factor. There should be some eualizing subtraction based on the school a child attends and/or the parental wealth/education.</p>

113

<p>Chinaman, I didn't say that and am not sure how you assumed that was what I was saying. Anyone who is a citizen is American and I don't put much thought into who is American and who isn't as it realy doesn't matter much to me. But, you have not been part of the history of this country as it relates to you race being treated as nothing more than property so that this country could prosper. At some point, your family came to American for a reason. You found it appealing and sought opportunity. Many of those very same opportunities exist in part due to the enslavement of blacks here.</p>

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<p>Chinaman said: "What we influence kids by saying if you want to go ahead work harder. We do raise excpectations higher and sacrfice our life and our pleasure for our kids. Is that wrong to do so tell me?"</p>

<p>I want to respond to something that was not said in Chinaman's post, but that often immigrants do think about African Americans.</p>

<p>Imigrants, including black immigrants, often seem to think, "What's wrong with African Americans? Why don't they teach their kids that hard work will pay off?"</p>

<p>What is important for immigrants to realize is that "hard work will pay off" is something that only recently became true for African Americans in the US. Before the late 1960s, when the racial discimination laws were officially ended, in probably most parts of this country, hard work did not pay off for African Americans.</p>

<p>An African American student could be the star in their school and could have stellar standardized test scores, and still couldn't go to the best schools in many states. The reason was simply their race. The option would be to go to a historically black college (which were grossly underfunded compared to the public and private mainstream institutions) or to go hundreds, perhaps even thousands of miles away out of state. This often was impossible because there weren't scholarships available and (due to employment discrimination) the black students' parents probably couldn't afford to send the student that far.</p>

<p>In addition, until very recently-- perhaps the past 30 years -- there has been a history in the US of blacks endangering themselves and their families by standing out as being intelligent, competent, assertive people. The sharecropper who was smart enough to calculate the numbers and realize that their family was being cheated by the land owner was likely to be killed or threatneed if s/he challenged the figures.</p>

<p>When blacks came together and created prosperous communities, those communities were seen as threats to the white community, and they were likely to be targeted. The massacre at Rosewood in Fla. is just one example of this.</p>

<p>In addition, most careers were closed to African Americans. One could be a black doctor (attending only black medical schools, too) serving only black patients in underfunded black hospitals. One could be a black businessman in a business that one owned oneself and that was in the black community and served the black community. </p>

<p>Even lucrative trades were closed to blacks, including in the North.</p>

<p>Many immigrants -- Caribbean, African, Asian -- came to this country after having a history of growing up in a country in which merit -- exam scores -- determined who became educated and who thus got a ticket to wealth and success. African Americans had a long history of the opposite: grades, exam scores were relatively meaningless. There was a real ceiling on what one could do, and that low ceiling was due to race.</p>

<p>While things have changed since the 1960s, it's important to realize that the change was very gradual and long time family habits and perspectives that were honed by oppression did not automatically change once the legal barriers were ended. It's very hard for people to realize that habits that were functional in an oppressive system are now things impeding their progress now that the system has become more open.</p>

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<p>NSM, interesting comments about the article. Here's what I have a hard time with:
I know more than a handful of black families...two professional parents in the home with degrees from Ivies.....kids attending the most elite schools possible. ALL of these kids are prepped for SAT. I know one kid who was prepped for TWO YEARS!! The others that I am aware of were prepped for the normal period of time (12 weeks or whatever). These kids still aren't breaking 1200. They have high GPAs and are loaded with great ECs. They play sports. They volunteer. The parents are active in the school and show great concern for education. Why can't these kids score well after taking and retaking the test???? This really bothers me. I'm not talking about one or two kids.....I'm talking about 40-50 who fit this category.</p>

116

<p>"But many also believe that 'racial' bump should not be just one way street. Racial bump should not be just an addtive factor. There should be some eualizing subtraction based on the school a child attends and/or the parental wealth/education."</p>

<p>This exists. I have heard Ivy league adcoms say, for instance, that if a black kid from an upper middle or upper class, educated family has high scores, mediocre grades, that kid will not be admitted. In fact, I saw that happen with my older son, and IMO, his rejection was very justified.</p>

<p>I have met black kids with lower scores (1200 -1300), high grades, working class/low income background who were accepted to Ivies, and IMO they were very deserving of that. </p>

<p>Typically, they were some of the few college-bound students in their neighborhoods and schools, and while their achievements may have seemed ordinary when compared with those of students in affluent and highly-educated environments, their achievements were remarkable considering where they went to school and what their families were able to do to help them.</p>

<p>When it comes to elites now, many have now started to work hard to attract low income students. I don't know how much this will affect Asian applicants because there already are a lot of low income Asian applicants getting accepted to such schools. Often such immigrants come to this country specifically so their kids are able to get excellent educations, so I think that their kids end up being overrepresented in the admission pools. I know that most of the high achieving students whom I see who seem to be low income and college bound appear to be disproportionately immigrant, particularly Asian and eastern European.</p>

<p>It seems to be rarer to find high achieving low income students who are black, Hispanic, or white who have the grades/curricula/scores putting them on track for the top colleges.</p>

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<p>"I know more than a handful of black families...two professional parents in the home with degrees from Ivies.....kids attending the most elite schools possible. ALL of these kids are prepped for SAT. I know one kid who was prepped for TWO YEARS!! The others that I am aware of were prepped for the normal period of time (12 weeks or whatever). These kids still aren't breaking 1200. They have high GPAs and are loaded with great ECs. They play sports. They volunteer. The parents are active in the school and show great concern for education. Why can't these kids score well after taking and retaking the test???? This really bothers me. I'm not talking about one or two kids.....I'm talking about 40-50 who fit this category."</p>

<p>Perhaps this relates to Claude Steele's theory of stereotypical threat?</p>

<p>Otherwise, I am baffled. I have not seen the phenomenon that you describe. The rare black families whom I know who prep their kids for the test have kids who do very well, typically making it to National Merit commended or scholar level.
Steele on "stereotype threat":
"
By the term "stereotype threat" what we have in mind is simply being in a situation where a negative stereotype about your group could apply. As soon as that's the case, you know that you could be judged in terms of that stereotype or treated in terms of it or you might inadvertently do something that would confirm the stereotype. And if you care very much about doing well in that situation, the prospect of being treated stereotypically there is going to be upsetting and disturbing to you. And if you're a member of a group whose intellectual abilities are negatively stereotyped, this threat might occur. That negative stereotype will be applicable to you right in the middle of an important standardized test. And our general reasoning was that this threat, this prospect of confirming a stereotype or of being seen that way would be distracting enough, upsetting enough, to undermine a person's performance right there in the middle of a test."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/interviews/steele.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/interviews/steele.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>To add another view to Chinaman's posts.</p>

<p>There are many caucasian American families who work very hard to pay for their children's education. Many who came from large families with not alot of money. Many of us put ourselves through college years ago by working two or three jobs during college, and taking out loans. We still work hard, and also make many sacrifices for our children. We also opted to send our son to an "elite prep school" as he would call it. This was our choice. The difference between our families is that we got no financial aid at all! We also got no financial aid at all for college. I sometimes wish that my kid(s) could go to school for free. Our caucasian American son has many of the qualities that his sons have (good test scores, high grades, athlete, leader, community volunteer, etc.) Should I be resentful that his kid gets aid and mine doesn't?<br>
I am not resentful at all, because my children benefit from attending schools with diverse populations comprised of wonderful resourceful kids like his (and mine)! And we are lucky to have that choice.</p>

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<p>I thought that this part of the Claude Steele article also was very interesting:</p>

<p>"Yes, I think one of the reactions we sometimes get to our research on the part of women who are good in math or blacks who are good in academics for example is, "That's very interesting Claude, but look, can't they just bear down and beat the stereotype?.... What we have found out is that it is the attempt to overcome the stereotype, to struggle past it under this added pressure that is in some sense causing the under performance. It's causing them to, for example in our research, they're re-reading the items, re-checking their answers, going back and forth, double-guessing. And on standardized tests, that's not the most effective way to take them...."</p>

<p>I do know that when one of my S's took an IQ test in elementary school, his score was very depressed for the above reasons. He got so caught up in being perfect that he actually got very low scores in some areas that he clearly was very capable in.</p>

<p>When he took the test again, a year later, and was given very clear instructions that perfection was not a requirement, and that he should provide his best guess, his estimated IQ went from above average to well in the gifted range.</p>

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<p>I've heard of the "stereotypical threat" before and have never really taken a deep dive to understand it. I'm curious now and thank you for the link. </p>

<p>In thinking about the kids I know who fit into this category, I realize that thse kids are often recognized as outstanding before the SAT is administered....they get into LEAD and spend summers on top college campuses, they spend summers in language immersion programs in other countries, they win awards, etc...... The parents really feel like they've done all they can and they think their child is "set"....and then they take the SAT and everyone is stunned when the scores come out. I've heard a few of them get angry at the school, thinking that the academics aren't worth the $20k/yr because the kid can't score well on the SAT. Meanwhile, the white student who is getting lower grades at the same school is getting the 1550 on the SAT. I just think there has to be somethng to it and perhaps it is the "stereotypical threat". And, perhaps this is why the adcoms are willing to overlook the low SAT for the black kid with the 4.0 GPA who just returned from a summer in LEAD after the last two summers were spent mastering French in Europe. Meanwhile, their parents are chairing the parent's association (not the black parent's association - the ALL parent's association) at the mostly white elite prep school. </p>

<p>My experience has not been that black parents aren't engaged on concerned. Quite the opposite! Honestly, at a recent gathering of black parents the topic of dinner conversation was which SAT prep firm was best and why one immersion program was better than another.</p>