<p>Marite, it may be time to change the batteries in your calculator :) </p>
<p>A quick mental calculation of 10% of 6597 yields 660 students. It seems that 496/6597 is indeed 7.52 %. You may have transposed the numbers and overlooked the decimals to get to 13.30 %.</p>
<p>Xiggi:</p>
<p>Thanks! The gray cells are not functioning properly. Good thing S is not at home!</p>
<p>As one of the 1800 black students who scored higher than a 1300 on the SATs ( I got a 1340, 700v/640m) and one of the three "competitive" black students in my school, I feel at odds because of the immense pressure that is on me.</p>
<p>I go to an extremly competitive Private High School in Washignton, DC, and basically most of the people in our school are applying to the top 10 schools in the country. Many students in the school are totally against AA in every aspect, and I have truly felt and heard the hatred that many of the White students have about minority applicants getting into schools that they feel they deserve to go to. For instance, a couple of days ago, in my AP English class we were having a discussion on who is applying to Harvard and about 3 student stated that they were applying there. I also chimmed in that I was appying to Harvard. Now when I said this I felt a tension rise in the room that had not been there before and one of the kids who was also applying to Harvard was sort of glaring at me and staring at me in disbelief. A friend of mine who was seated right next to me confirmed the tension that came out of nowhere in the room later that day.</p>
<p>Basically, I feel that around the country many white students feel that black students do not work as hard as them and dont get as high of GPA's as them, and in turn they don't deserve to go to top colleges. I find it disheartening to believe that so many students in my school actually believe that I am less talented than them when I have taken as many AP and honors courses than them and have comparable SAT scores</p>
<p>Wow...I wonder what their reaction will be if I do get into Harvard?</p>
<p>I am not for or against AA, but allow me to share some of your classmates feelings.</p>
<p>Many believe that AA is a good tool to promote racial diversity on a campus who were really disadvantaged. In your case you go to a private school --> your parents are higher on economic ladder than many white kids. You had same advatages as many of your classmates.</p>
<p>Put uour self in their position. If you were white, had better SAT than 1340, better GPA, better AP, SAT II scores and better resume were denied, but some one with same economic bacground as you do got accepted because of skin color, how would you feel? BTW 1340 is not that high for HYPSM for a white or asian kid.</p>
<p>On the other hand if you were a black from low income inner city school, your scores are very admirable.</p>
<p>One way for you to do self reflection is go to Harvard or Stanford thread and compare yourself with many of the kids who have posted their stats.</p>
<p>If I was an adcom, I would put your app with white kid app.</p>
<p>I agree with simba. </p>
<p>I would add that one (of several) ways to accomplish the objective of AA without discriminating based on race would be basing admissions decision on economic status. If African-Americans are indeed poorer because of prior racial dicrimination, that economic status could be addressed in college admission decisions.</p>
<p>Simba makes an assumption that is not exactly "evidence-based." One can't simply assume that because Smithk attends a private school "his parents are higher on the economic ladder than most white kids." How do we know this? I live in New York and I know a number of kids, black and white, who attend private schools. In general, most black kids attending these schools receive need-based scholarships, either full or partial. There are exceptions, of course. On the other hand, relatively few white kids in those schools (in percentage terms) receive need-based aid. In fact, private schools' financial aid budgets are the way they maintain any diversity at all (at least with respect to black and Latino students). In New York, a very substantial percentage of black kids in private schools are from Prep for Prep or similar programs that recruit low- and moderate-income minority kids of promise for the leading private schools here. </p>
<p>Simba, sadly, I do not believe that most objections to AA would not go away if it were class-based rather than race-based. After ending race-based AA in Texas, for example, many now complain that the "race-neutral" approach of admitting the top ten percent from every high school in the state to the UT system is unfair to middle and upper middle class kids (mostly white) who attend "good" schools. They want the system changed yet again. You can't win! Any system that gives a 'tip' to the previously excluded (whether defined racially, economically, geographically or whatever) will be opposed by those who perceive that their interests are adversely affected.</p>
<p>butterfly, If you re-read my post you would find that I would have praised his scores if he/she were from poor inner city school.</p>
<p>Let me ask you a point blank question. Let us say that my assumptions are correct. Would you still advocate 'race' bump for him/her?</p>
<p>For those interested in the black/white academic achievement gap, here's an interesting article. <a href="http://www.shearonforschools.com/Blacks_Battle_Achievement_Gap.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.shearonforschools.com/Blacks_Battle_Achievement_Gap.htm</a>
*
It's important to recognize that "middle class" and even apparently wealthy black families typically differ in some important respects from white families in the same income categories. The black family is likely to have less financial assets, more debt, more responsibility for financially helping out poorer relatives, and the black family is more likely to have two parents working fulltime.</p>
<p>All of these impact family dynamics as well as the black students' ability to access enrichment activities, to have sophisticated knowledge of things such as prepping for college (including the importance of taking AP/IB courses and going to a high quality school).</p>
<p>From the above mentioned article:
"Comparing middle-class black and white families just by income levels, for instance, might disguise the fact that the black family, newly arrived in suburbia, might be more burdened with debt and less likely to have affluent and educated family members, such as grandparents, who might influence the children's academic achievement. One study in the Brookings report said "our results imply that it takes at least two generations for changes in parental socioeconomic status to exert their full effect on parenting practices" that affect school achievement.
"</p>
<p>Even if the black student is attending an elite prep school, she/he is a very small minority at that school. I've seen a few students write about the experience on CC. They're shunned by white just because they're black (if not shunned, never fully accepted) and shunned by blacks for attending such a school in the first place. The live in a very unique world and their ability to thrive in such an environemnt makes them desirable to a college. How about the black kid who gets bussed out of his/her neighborhood to some affluent suburb to attend high school. It's naive to assume that once income levels are equalized, blacks and white are the same. </p>
<p>There's an old saying:"What does a white man call a black man with a PhD?"....a "nig&*#"</p>
<p>Some challenges don't go away, no matter how accomplished or wealthy a black person is. Until you're willing to accept that, you'll continue to feel frustrated by admissions decisions that consider such challenges and the diversity they bring to a campus.</p>
<p>swbutterfly:</p>
<p>I agree with Simbha on this one and I am not against AA but I think the smithkid kid should be treated as white or asian. I have two kids who attend the top boarding schools on full fin aid, kid has top 5% score , the most have most difficult class load in schools ever. Have excellnet baord score and have highly accomplished ECs and some national rankings. Yet being asian they have no gurantee in elite school. AA Kids with similar financial aid but lower board score, much easier course load, lower GPA and board score have much better admission in top elite school. My kids fault that they are asian and thus will be competing against other asians. My kids saw much more poverty in first five years than most of the kids in similar situation as we just came to USA. But we worked hard to make our life better. Me and my wife worked 20 hours a day between ourself. Yet we have tried to make our life better. Please tell me what is the differncebetween that kid and my kid. Probably we have two parents and he has one rooting for him. Just a thought.</p>
<p>I am helping kids with the college application process at my daughters innercity high school. Many of them are African American, many from single parent households and many are low income. I noticed that a disproportinate number of them are new to the school. From listening to their histories it sounds that they have had a very transient growing up. That seems it would make it difficult for anyone to concentrate on school ( it also makes it more difficult for their recommendations)
I really enjoy helping them, it is very exciting to help someone find a school that will help prepare them for their adulthood, but I am worried about finding some of them enough financial aid to make a difference.</p>
<p>Our public school has a great deal of resources for all students not just white/asian. When I was in high school no one said anything about post high school and especially not college and I attended school in a fancy suburb with college educated parents. At my daughters school, all staff even the security guards are involved in making sure kids go to class, that they take their SATs, that they stay in school and go to college. Its a big school but we all work hard not to let anyone slip through the cracks even if they are working hard at it.</p>
<p>Northstarmom:</p>
<p>I disagree with,'...and less likely to have affluent and educated family members, such as grandparents, who might influence the children's academic achievement. One study in the Brookings report said "our results imply that it takes at least two generations for changes in parental socioeconomic status to exert their full effect on parenting practices" that affect school achievement."</p>
<p>If that was true then many recent immigrant children from Asia, or Africa would have lower achievements. (I think there was a study done that showed first generation black kids did quite well academically). </p>
<p>Many of them do not even know their grandparents and many of their parents have a low skill jobs.</p>
<p>Chinaman-</p>
<p>The difference is that the student above is only one of 1800 black students who has achieved such levels. If your son was to become one of only 1800 Asians to do something (wouldn't even have to be in terms of a score), then your son would have a much higher chance. Bottom line: Asians are definitely the highest scorers on the SAT....above whites. Asians are also overrepresented in colleges. Thus, a high-scoring Asian isn't unique. I believe that if raced-based admissions criteria was eliminated, Asians would be admitted at even higher numbers. The impact on whites would be much greater from the admittance Asians that from the African Americans not being admitted. In other words, whites would feel a greater loss in admission numbers from the push from the Asians above them. Luckily, scores are not the only factor considered. I still find it irritating that people are upset about a couple of hundred African Americans who get a boost at a school, when that school has 5-10 thousand students. And, the Asians....who are at the top of the equation (highest scores) are upset with those couple of hundred African Americans who are at the bottom....wanting to eliminate them alltogether to make more room for their own. Good grief!</p>
<p>Northstarmom:
I have nothing but utmost respect for you but would like to state a few things:</p>
<p>"The black family is likely to have less financial assets, more debt, more responsibility for financially helping out poorer relatives, and the black family is more likely to have two parents working fulltime.</p>
<p>I am still helping my family and we both work and in different hours so that we can raise our daughter. me and my wife do not see other much as we both take care of our daughter. Most of the kids who are in elite boarding school including prep for prep have not seen real poverty. Do you know many of them studies in kerosence lamps? Do you know many of them slept hungry when as an immigrant we have only $20 in my pocekt? How many of these kids have language barriers that parents could not speak? Yet in the end we have tried to overcome? I have my parents and sibling back home and want to live there and we do support them?</p>
<p>I am sure there are more examples of this from similar immigrants from Africa who have achieved American Dream? But do not just say that AA is right for rich or middle class AA kids? Yes it is must and necessary for poor AA americans who have 1200 score and no AP coming from a very poor school. They do deserve AA in college admission but not a preppy AA kid from middle class over a poor asian with much better academic record with 1600/800/800/800 from an poor asian or poor white kid with hardest possible course load. Just a thought.</p>
<p>Nothstarmom:</p>
<p>Do not get mad. Just be rationale and read my line. I did not say that AA is wrong, it is very important but it should be used in a way that any poor kids with poor school district get and edge instead of a rich AA kid. This way it will be more balance.</p>
<p>Emraldkity: Most people don't have any problem with kids you describe getting ahead. I had very similar discussion with my son (I am Asian). His response was he would be upset, but would understand a black kid with 1300 from his HS (~ 40% on free and reduced lunch) get in to Stanford, but he would never understand a black kid from Kinkaid (exclusive ritzy school in Houston. Parents register their kids when they are pragnent. Nannies come in Lexuses to pick up kids) with 1300 get in to Stanford. They had better opportunities available than him. Makes no difference to him that the black kid was on a scholarship.</p>
<p>"Even if the black student is attending an elite prep school, she/he is a very small minority at that school." Momsdreams words are also true of black kids in AP/IB classes, even when the students are attending predominantly black schools.</p>
<p>My S is attending an IB program in an overwhelmingly black public high school. He is the only black male in his class that is in the IB program. The black males in particular have been targeted by nonIB black peers. This has caused some black males to avoid the program or to drop out even though they came from highly educated, very supportive families. It is a very painful situation for these students. The black girls, too, have been targets, but not to as much of an extent as have the black males.</p>
<p>When my son was in gifted programs in middle and elementary school, he tended to be the only black student in his class in the gifted program even when his schools were 15-20% black.</p>
<p>I also have found that teacher expectations are in general lower for black students than for many other students. As an example, S, who has a gifted IQ, highly educated parents, etc., got a couple of Cs on his report card. Neither S nor I were pleased to see those grades, which he deserved because he had been lazy and disorganized.</p>
<p>However, when an administrator at his school saw his report card, the administrator complimented him on a "good job." S's 8th grade PSAT score was a 650 V. He should be complimented on getting a C in English when students whose scores were far below his are getting As? </p>
<p>Incidentally, I have found that the low teacher expectations for black students cross color lines. Black teachers also do this. Particularly when it comes to black males, it seems that many people think that a student who is passing and isn't in jail is doing a terrific job.</p>
<p>When it comes to AA, it's important to realize that it was not started just because of the economic disparities, but also because of the impact of hundreds of years of discrimination, lies and prejudice in this country about black people. This includes lies that were spread that indicated that black people were constitutionally inferior mentally and physically compared to white people. </p>
<p>The current black students also are bearing the brunt of what happened in colonial Africa when European invaders destroyed centries-old libraries in black Africa, and then rewrote history to indicate that black Africans were never literate and never were interested in education.</p>
<p>Unlike, for instance, the Chinese, who come to this country with an awareness of their cultures' longstanding appreciation of education, that was not the same with the enslaved Africans.</p>
<p>African Americans have been taught and led to believe that they had no history of education.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, Henry Louis Gates at Harvard has been researching black Africa's history of having libraries. Some of this info was in a front page NY Times article this week, which I can't locate now.</p>
<p>However, here's a link to what Gates discussed on this subject in his "Wonders of the African World" series of a few years ago: <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wonders/Episodes/Epi5/5_retel2.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.pbs.org/wonders/Episodes/Epi5/5_retel2.htm</a></p>
<p>My guess is that as this info becomes more known, African Americans' perceptions of themselves will change, and we will realize that reading, being intelligent, etc. are in our heritage, and students will act accordingly.</p>
<p>I really do try to see this from all sides.....and being half-white, I try to see everything from both sides:</p>
<p>And maybe I'll take flames for this but here it is:</p>
<p>The African Americans in this country are not here because they came to take advantage of something : education, employment, freedom, other opportunities.
They're here because their ancestors were captured, enslavedand brought here to help build the Nation - against their will. And, help build the nation they did....while being murdered, raped, tortured and then tossed out like garbage. Don't you think it might be understandable that a few generations later the great-great-great grandchildren of these people would get a slight boost if they aspire to enjoy some of the opportunities available here - AND they've shown that thay are among the top 1% of the academic achievers from their race - and the top 10% from ALL races? It's irritating when someone from another country comes here to take advantage of our nation's educational opportunities and demands that our African American kids "stand down" because they don't measure up to someone's (someone not from the US) ideal of what they should have achieved.</p>
<p>It is very different for immigrants from Africa and African Americans. The parents of the African American students seem more likely not to be working, less likely to attend school functions, and less likely to know how to help their kids after high school.
I don't know how to get them more involved. I don't want them to feel intimidated, I want them to feel welcome and to know that their kids are great and they did a good job with them. BUt it is frustrating I admit.
Last year we were in a different school and as the chair of the parent group I was responsible for getting more parents involved. But outside of a few black families who were already involved, I wasn't very successful at making more parents feel comfortable at attending parent meetings or helping out in the school. Many of these families weren't low income, but it was like pulling teeth to get anyone to volunteer time. I wanted more adults who looked like the kids in the building. It makes such a difference to kids when their parents have education as a priority.
The parent board even elected to add a black woman as cochair for this year even though she had not attended any of the previous parent meetings. We wanted families to see a more diverse board ( even though not all their kids were Caucasian, the parents on the board mostly were) and she seemed like she was really interested in being involved. Unfortunately for whatever reason, she has backed out and while she still has the title of cochair she still doesn't come to the meetings and I have even been going over there to help out occasionally.
It is really frustrating, white parents can only do so much to get African American parents involved, and I feel that some of our efforts backfire despite best intentions :(</p>
<p>"It's naive to assume that once income levels are equalized, blacks and white are the same. "</p>
<p>It also naive to assume that just because a black child is a small minority in an affluent school deserves a 'bump'.</p>
<p>I can relate to being minority. In my son's HS (~3000 kids) there are less than 50 Indian/Pakistani, less than 100 East Asian, so don't tell me that those kids had easy time in their HS.</p>
<p>The way I see it is that afluent blacks like the racial 'bump' their kids get. They feel threatened that such a privilage may end. As I said before, most have no problem with AA for disadvantaged kids, but many feel that AA for afluent minority is nothing but a quota system.</p>