Personally, I am looking forward to studying jazz (performance, business and therapy) at a university, but many of my friends may to prefer studying at a conservatory. To me, the best jazz schools in the country are Thornton (USC), Frost ([]_[] Miami), University of North Texas, Berklee School of Music, Julliard, The New School (NYC), Manhattan School of Music The New England Conservatory and, maybe Steinhart (NYU). Since I want to study at a university, I would rank the schools that I am interested in the following order: Miami; USC; NYU and North Texas. What do you guys think? What do you see as the pros and cons of university vs. conservatory? My biggest reason for preferring the uni. setting to a conservatory is that I think that I will get a much more rounded education at a univ., be better able to broaden myself and learn more about the business end of the music industry (as well as have something to fall back on). The biggest con to a uni setting is that it is much tougher to get into a quality school, in that it takes more than just raw musical talent.
New member to CC. THE [][] is far and away my No. 1 choice. My question is how heavily does THE [][] rely on grades and test results for talented potential Frost students? Currently, I am a Junior in H.S., and I play the piano, and am the pianist for my H.S. Varsity Jazz band (which is nationally recognized). Also, I am the pianist for a Caleb Chapman band (also Nationally recognized) that will be touring the U.K. this summer. My grades in H.S. are pretty good (3.5 unweighted), and I have ACT scores of 30 in math, 30 in english, 29 in science and 25 in reading. Not only am I hoping to get into Frost, but I would like to be offered some type of scholarship. How important are grades as opposed to say my musical talent, audition, tape, etc.?
IMO, I think it’s more constructive to talk in terms of which school is “best” for YOU, and that really depends on what you want to get out of it. And that’s probably not a straight list, but a matrix of factors, such as the overall program, the faculty for your instrument, cost.
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What do you see as the pros and cons of university vs. conservatory? I think many of your assumptions are incorrect. Course offerings and content have more to do with degrees offered and their requirements, i.e. BM vs BMA vs BA. I would simply look at each program on its own merits and not get hung up on whether it's a conservatory or a university. For example, if you want to combine performance with music industry and music therapy, Berklee may be a great fit, but that's a conservatory. Thornton is also strong for music industry; that's a university.How important are grades as opposed to say my musical talent, audition, tape, etc.?
Every school, conservatory or university, asks to see grades. How much it effects admission depends on the the admissions decision makers; at the top music schools, including universities, the decision makers are generally music faculty, even if grades are considered. Your audition will always be the key decision factor.
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If cost is a significant factor for you, keep in mind that some universities give merit money for both academics and music. If you have strong academic credentials, this may make a big difference for you. USC/Thornton is a good example.
You don’t mention jazz piano faculty at all, but you may want to consider whether there are specific teachers out there that you want to study with. If you’re not familiar with who teaches where, this may be something worth investigating. For example, Benny Green teaches at University of Michigan, Geri Allen at Pitt, neither of which are on your “best” schools list.
Everything that you say makes sense, but when I visited Frost and spoke with Thornton, I was told by the head of the respective Jazz piano departments that first you need to be accepted to the university based upon generally accepted criteria (grades, scores, essays, extracurriculars, etc.), and, if you are, then you are considered for the School of Music based upon your resume’ and auditions. I would like to study under Martin Bejerano at Frost.
I think I can answer your question about grades -vs- talent. Frost made it very clear that it is to be a joint mutual decision between Frost and the U. Both have to be in complete agreement for an acceptance. The scholarships are separate. So, you would be considered no differently than any other applicant for academic scholarship and additionally considered for talent. Lastly, financial aid would look at any remaining need you may have. I know there are UMiami threads that discuss academic awards and people have posted their stats. From what I can tell, there is no clear cut formula. I have absolutely no idea what Frost could potentially offer for talent.
What is your weighted GPA? Their average GPA is quite high and the middle 50 for ACT composite is 28 to 32. So, your ACT is low end but would not eliminate you. I would definitely get working on the GPA and consider retaking the ACT if you are up to it. Honestly, you are at 28.5 rounding up to a 29, so you may need to put forth a little more effort to get a 30-31, but that would probably better position you for scholarship. If you can get yourself to a tutor that will focus on improving your reading portion, you may be able to focus just on that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I0iS5njK04
Miami seems different in admissions process than a lot of schools. I really walked away with a “academics are equally important as talent” impression. They even say it is not likely for a very worthy high stats student to be offered admission in a program outside of Frost, whereas that is very common practice at many schools. I did not get the “if I’m talented enough, they will overlook my GPA” vibe… at all… and vice versa “If I blow my audition, I can study ______ there instead”
Hope that helps. Best of luck! Make sure you have some safeties and I would say there’s nothing wrong with checking out all types of schools…conservatory, university, large, small… You may change your mind during the process.
That is my impression, as well…and that is exactly what I am looking for. Also, I have legacy at THE []_[]. Thank you for confirming my thoughts, and concerns.
I can’t speak to Frost. For Thornton, we were told by Thornton admissions that while you do have to be “accepted” by both USC and Thornton, there are no academic criteria (e.g. minimum GPA, SAT/ACT scores) for admissions. She stated that while it’s possible to be accepted by USC but not by Thornton, the reverse does not happen. That doesn’t necessarily mean, however, that Thornton doesn’t take academic records into consideration for admissions.
Most universities require acceptance by both the school and the music school, Some have academic criteria for music school applicants; University of Michigan and Northwestern are two that I’m aware of. But the criteria for music school applicants are different from other schools within the University.
Again, I think it’s more constructive to look at the requirements/criteria for each school individually and not make sweeping assumptions based on whether it’s a conservatory or a university.
We met with a Miami representative in town at a hotel. He was a young guy new to the job. His demeanor screamed “athletics” which he talked about a lot (yawn). He knew nothing about the music school or BFA in MT. It was embarrassing - even for me. He went straight to my D’s grades and scores - fine for GPA - below the mid-range for ACT - but in the full range. He drilled down on this and said if she wanted to be sure to be accepted she should really consider getting her ACT score up. We left the interview and I thought…well that ain’t gonna happen…sr year with the lead in the fall musical and still visiting schools. It was low on the list at that point anyway.
She auditioned at Chicago Unifieds for MT (not Frost) and had a great audition. The only MT audition that asked a series of Music Theory questions. They told her not to worry as the last one no one could answer - which she could. I’m sure that question wasn’t on the ACT. She got accepted with her largest scholarship (it was also the most expensive school so still pricey in the end). She decided on the VP route and did not accept.
Our experience in MT was you simply need to be in the “acceptable” range academically. Then work on your music (unless you are trying for scholarships based on academic scores)! The music school could be different - but I doubt it.
Hope this helps you.
I think that I need to discuss this with my counselor. If she agrees with you ScreenName48105, I will ask my dad to meet with her. Right now, he says that while special, any talented musician can get into Berklee, North Texas or The New School, to get into Frost or Thornton, you need both musical talent and good grades." While he supports my music in every way possible (time, money and commitment), grades come first to him. I understand that 100%.
Screenname did some good research on this and may know more than your counselor. If the counselor disagrees (many don’t understand the music side of things) contact the MUSIC school at the universities and ask them directly. You won’t be the first to ask! They’ll be happy to answer your questions. They understand musical kids focus on music more than ACT scores. No shame in that. Just ask. Then you’ll know what to focus on.
I guess I’m not understanding the issue.
If you want to know the admissions procedures and criteria/requirements, call the admissions office for the school. They’ll be happy to explain it to you – it’s not a secret.
Is your father against you applying to schools that don’t have academic requirements? Getting good grades will always have a positive impact in admissions decisions, even for conservatories that don’t have specific requirements. All schools want to feel like you’ll apply yourself and be successful in your classes.
From your original post, it seems like you may have been looking for some assurance that jazz study at a university or conservatory is good (or better or best). Really a conservatory or university (with a conservatory) will be similar in many ways from a music point of view. Not one option is better. It’s just about finding an environment and teacher that works for you.
I empathize a bit with your father. I’m a parent who wanted my D to have a University degree. It was not just a “belief” about something being “better”, it was more an opinion about who my D was as a person. I thought she needed a variety of “outlets”. If I had another musician, I may have had a different opinion. My D was a bit annoyed with my unwillingness to consider a conservatory but she never really fought it either.
I hope you can continue conversations with your dad about your goals and the right setting for you. And call admission to understand the play bx academics and talent. It will really help. And please know that an acceptance at any music school (be it Berklee, Frost, New School or Thorton) is quite the accomplishment. It is not uncommon to be rejected from what you consider the lesser school and accepted at the better school or vice versa. Excellent grades will help but in the end the audition matters the most.
There are universities that require academic acceptance before you can even schedule your audition. Even at a university that allows you to schedule your audition before academic acceptance, but has rolling admissions, you could be academically rejected before you even get a chance to audition and your audition would be cancelled. Not all universities “hold” the academic decision to let the music faculty weigh in.
Pure Conservatory versus a Conservatory program within a University can be very similar experiences. But every conservatory varies and is unique. You want to apply to the program that suit you best. Here are some things to think about as you look at your various choices:
1: Faculty and style of teaching.
2: Type of music the faculty plays: Is it Latin Jazz, Contemporary Jazz, Traditional Jazz, etc… If you hate Latin Jazz and most of your faculty specialize in Latin Jazz than that particular school might not be right for you.
3: Liberal Arts Requirements. Even at a conservatory you will need liberal arts classes to get a Bachelors of Music. Some conservatories have their own liberal arts instruction. Others have you take liberal arts classes at a neighboring university or college and some offer both options. Find out how easy it is to cross register and think about what type of liberal arts classes you are interested in and want. For example if you are also interested in biology find out how challenging it is to be enrolled in a conservatory and take a biology class. Ask questions of current students about lab requirements, transportation or distance to the laboratories from the practice studios etc…
4: Social Life. For a Jazz musician social life can also be very much part of their musical life. At a small conservatory tight bonds are often formed among Jazz musicians. Many a well known music group can trace their roots back to time at specific conservatories. But you also might be somebody that wants a broader social life than just spending time with other musicians. If that is the case look at what the social life at any given institution will be. Talk to students and ask questions about it.
4: Location: If you are a cold weather person than maybe Eastman is a better choice than Frost. If you hate the cold and snow than maybe not Eastman. NYC is not for everyone. Boston has a lot of students and is small, but again is not for everyone with it’s harsh winters.
5: Goals: If your goal is to hopefully become a musician do you want to teach, gig, do studio work, compose, work on film, be a multimedia artist, etc…Almost all conservatories offer some type of entrepreneurial education. Research the institutions and talk to students about what training they are getting for moving on beyond conservatory and what their peers are doing after graduation.
As for Academics: Regardless of where or what you do you will NEED to write well. You will need solid math and analytical skills. It can only help you to have a strong science foundation. If you do anything do not do it because you want to get a good grade but do it because learning is important right now. Care about becoming a good writer so when you have to write a grant in the future you will have the skills do to that. If you care enough the grades and scores will come.
As you know North Texas has the dual admission requirement. If you are not a Texas resident, it is not a safe assumption that it is easy to gain admittance to the university itself. In Texas the top 10% from Texas high schools are guaranteed acceptance to the university (but not to the department or school). So in any given year a high number of university spots may not be available to out of state students. This would cause the grade requirements for those spots to be higher. It does the same thing for Texas residents not in the top 10%.
Good info. here. Thanks for taking the time to reply!
We know someone who did not get into Frost because of his academic profile. But landed at Juilliard.
If your music is solid and your audition matches you should be in good shape.
Perhaps I can be of some help. I’m currently in the jazz saxophone program at Miami. First off I want to say that in my opinion this is the best place to go if you want to study jazz as well as get a well rounded education. Martin is absolutely killing, and everyone I know that studies with him loves him and says he’s a great educator. I can’t say for sure about the piano studio, but I know every first semester freshman in the sax studio studies with the professor and not a TA. However, the TA’s are equally ridiculous, so I wouldn’t even mind studying with them.
As far as academics I would think that you definitely qualify. I know people that have gotten in with both better and worse. As long as your grades are acceptable the music school can pull some weight to get you in.
Some scholarships are decided on by the university, and some are by the music school. For example, I’m on the full tuition Isaac Singer Scholarship, which is based totally on academic merit and handed out by the university. Those are pretty competitive (I had 4.0 unweighted GPA, 2390 SAT with 800 on subject tests ,and had worked at an engineering firm) but a fair amount of people get them. The music school also has a lot of its own money to hand out. Personally I don’t know of anyone at least in the saxophone department that’s getting less than $20,000 per year. They have a lot of money and if you play well they will throw their money at you to convince you to come.
I don’t know how heavily the music school relies on grades. I think that if you play very well you will get in. If you don’t play as well as some of the other people, but you have really good grades, that might be enough to get you in as well. To be honest I know some people in Frost that are brilliant and others that are very average academically, so I would mostly focus on your playing and make sure you kill the audition.
Good luck!
saxguy628, you must know Mr. Domalski.