<p>I know people always tout HYPSM: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT. Does anyone consider UPenn and Caltech in the same grouping in terms of UNDERGRADUATE study as those aforementioned other top schools. If you do, could you explain why, and if you do not, do you believe these two schools are improving their status.</p>
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<p>Caltech is the clear number one for studying pure sciences at the undergrad level (and arguably for grad as well).</p>
<p>Penn's standout continues to be Wharton.</p>
<p>Caltech is closest to MIT in "stature" in the scientific community, and going to either MIT or CalTech is considered to be more academically challenging than going to the other colleges you listed. The saying goes that getting an education at Caltech is like "drinking water from a fire hose". MIT and Cal Tech are both known for their strength in the sciences. They also attract, and accept the most brilliant students, if you consider SAT scores to be a measure of smarts. Improving on their status? Huh? They are all considered top schools, and each have areas of strength, but MIT and Cal Tech are for students primarily interested in math, science, technology etc.. The others look for a more diversified class of students- musicians, scholar-athletes, students with a wide range of strengths and abilities.</p>
<p>HYPSMC is as far as I've seen it go...</p>
<p>The C, tetrisfan, I assume is for Caltech.</p>
<p>UPenn seems to get a lot of pub for Wharton, but it seems to have a lot more going for it besides business that helps it stand out. Is it true it has probably the top, or one of the top, language programs? </p>
<p>I guess what I am asking is really is it only name and endowement that separates those first five from Caltech, Penn, and maybe even Columbia or Duke?</p>
<p>the first five are not separated from caltech.</p>
<p>honestly, there are bigger factors than endowment. you can't compete against them in terms of reputation, but the differences in education tend to be way overexaggerated. at this level, fit should take priority over concerns over discrepencies academic quality (which are essentially non existent, barring the gap caltech/mit have over everyone else in the sciences/engineering).</p>
<p>Columbia > Penn
Harder to get in, higher grades and standards, larger endowment.
Penn troll ::sighs::
COlumbia is also more prestigious =)</p>
<p>Penn's business and nursing undergrads are noth no.1. Liberal arts/sciences are roughly on the same level as Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth. Engineering has some superstar departments (such as Bioengineering and Nanotechnology) which are at or near the top in the country, and the rest are at par with the other Ivies (but perhaps lower than their counterparts at Princeton and Cornell).</p>
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Actually, they're very close.</p>
<p>SATs for middle 50% of enrolled freshmen:
Penn 1980-2250
Columbia 1980-2220</p>
<p>Penn's endowment as of 6/30/07--$6.6 billion
Columbia's endowment as of 6/30/07 (estimated--no official announcement yet)--$7.2 billion
And Penn's endowment has been growing at a faster rate than Columbia's.</p>
<p>Yes the C is for CAltech</p>
<p>haha, I would agree that columbia > penn but for different reasons.</p>
<p>and the stats don't matter - everyone knows columbia is harder to get into (besides wharton, but that's in a separate tier within penn anyways).</p>
<p>45 percenter - are you sure those stats aren't for ACCEPTED freshmen, not enrolled? I wasn't aware that colleges actually gave out both.</p>
<p>Those are the stats from collegeboard.com, which are for ENROLLED--and not accepted--freshmen. Collegeboard.com hasn't updated its stats yet, so those are for the Class of 2010.</p>
<p>Don't assume that Wharton, because of its undisputed preeminence among undergraduate business programs, is the only part of Penn's undergraduate program that is comparable with Columbia. Although not a measure of undergraduate programs per se, and a bit dated, the highly respected NRC ranking of liberal arts and engineering Ph.D. programs has Penn (with 15 programs) ranked slightly above Columbia (with 14 programs) on the list of universities with the highest number of programs ranked in the top 10 (see table on right side of page 2):</p>
<p>In other words, both Penn and Columbia have comparable numbers of strong liberal arts departments, although in the past Penn's undergraduate liberal arts reputation has often been eclipsed by the undergraduate reputation of Wharton.</p>
<p>Cal Tech > UPenn</p>
<p>UPenn not nearly on HYPSM's level. And I agree that Columbia and Caltech are both better than UPenn, as are Duke, Dartmouth, and a number of LACs.</p>
<p>Got more replies on this thread than I thought I would.</p>
<p>To all the people saying Penn is not "up to par" could you explain why further? I know Penn has double the admission rate, but its also double the size. Admissions stats (College Board) seem to put HYPM on at the top with Penn, Columbia, Stanford in a pretty close group. Dartmouth and Duke as well. Caltech, of course, has super high math scores; the others for them are kind of irrelevant.</p>
<p>Also, another question. Why does it seem that the first person to put down Penn is chanting Columbia, and the first person to put down Columbia is spouting Penn? Are these two primary rivals of the other? I can see it. Ivy League schools in big cities, probably many shared applicants (including myself).</p>
<p>Nobody has put down Columbia in this thread. My posts were in response to an earlier post gratuitously claiming that Colubmia is unconditionally better than Penn. They're both great schools, and very comparable. With both schools, as with Dartmouth, Duke, etc., it's really a matter of personal preference and fit.</p>
<p>Claims that Columbia, Dartmouth, Duke, etc. are categorically "better" than Penn are uninformed, and are probably based on outdated impressions of relative prestige that are not supported by current data or facts.</p>
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<p>Berkeley is the best...:D (OK, I'm officially a troll...LOL)</p>
<p>I knew you'd like that page. :)</p>
<p>45 Percenter, I was not stating that anyone was bashing Columbia in this thread, it was just an observation of mine of past conversations regarding the two schools (UPenn and Columbia). </p>
<p>You did address the whole outdated impression thing. Looking statistically, it is certain that Penn is no longer the doormat of the Ivy League; it now seems to be trying to move into that upper-tier and take its place among the big names (although I don't know if it will).</p>