The $79,900 figure comes from another more recently updated website. See paragraph 6 under the heading" Average Debt To Income Ratio".
Doesn’t really matter as all figures are probably low due to under-reporting.
Actually, the mean vs median distinction is important, as the mean is pulled up by very big earners, and thus is not what “the family in the middle” actually lives off. $11,000 per year difference is a real difference at this income (and of course below.) And no, we can’t wave it away by assuring ourselves that everybody must be getting more under the table. My family’s income was what it was, no money under the table. I did have classmates who refused to believe such a low income could be true. And yes, they are not people I chose to spend much time with.
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Still does not matter for purposes of mean or median as there is a lot of under-reporting of “income” – both legal & not.
One of the best things that happened to my kids is a result of us not being wealthy when we bought a home 20 years ago. We bought our home in a town that had excellent schools but was far cheaper than other towns with similar schools. And as a result, they were friends with kids at various levels of SES.
Our income improved to the point that we were full pay even with both kids. The colleges my kids attended are very generous with financial aid and both my kids had roommates that were attending for free or close to it. When I learned that I told them to let their roommates guide where to go out for food or entertainment. Their response was something like “Dad, we already know that!”
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It’s one thing to know the average income, but another to actually know what that means. Even beyond that, though, the underlying issue is a lack of empathy.
Sending kids to private schools, or de facto privates (public magnets, exclusion through districting, etc) often prevents the development of empathy for SES, race, and academic ability. Kids can emerge from places like this thinking that their hard work has positioned them amongst the elite in society, ignoring situational privileges that usually play a more important factor than hard work.
And for those that attend college, they hear colleges making ridiculous claims about how diverse they are, despite the fact that 2 out of 3 people don’t go to college. So they can fall into a trap thinking that they’re hip because they have friends from all walks of society.
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From my experience with the kids of the families around us as our son was growing up, none of them had a clear picture of their privilege or their parent’s income. I think that’s pretty normal, so I wouldn’t expect most kids to have a realistic handle on average national income if they aren’t sure about their own. The question reminds me of the story of the group of blind men who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and imagine what the elephant is like by touching it; depending on what they touch, their description of the animal is quite different. I think most kids have a very fuzzy perception of the income elephant. They don’t have enough information or experience to see beyond the the trunk they’re holding, certainly not the whole beast.
If you are a parent posting on CC, it’s a good bet you are educated and are invested in your child’s education so, right there, you are above average in many ways. The fact that this article provokes us to discuss the various ways we’ve helped our children understand their privilege (so none of ours would be among those who’d cluelessly throw out a six-figure number, right?) speaks to our concerns about raising our children to see beyond the insulated worlds they live in, but I agree that:
Most of us here want our children to understand that experience without having to live it, and we hope that education is the ticket to that balance. At some level, that’s why this forum exists.
I’d like to think that we did a responsible job with our son, that his choice of service is his response to being raised to internalize “to him whom much has been given, much is expected.” He knows the answer to the professor’s question. If we didn’t make it clear, the military gave him that number when training him to lead and understand the range America’s soldiers. We’ve talked about it; he knows what the elephant looks like. But still, he is immensely privileged. That hard row to hoe that was his college choice and the deferred gratification of his service years sit comfortably on the back of a boarding school education where he has friends from families who are household names and a commission from a storied academy. He has had an elite education and life experience and, most likely, will be comfortable the rest of his days. There is nothing wrong with his good fortune but, as @OhiBro pointed out above, it needs to be accompanied by empathy and the humility of knowing that the deck was never stacked against him.
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Yes, or depending on the financial situation to stay on campus and watch the free movie and eat the food from the dining hall. I remember my dorm floor definitely became divided by those who ordered in pizza without thinking twice and those who were stressed by the “hey let’s order in pizza” suggestion and could not participate.
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Yes, that is true for rich people, because rich people consider talking about money to be “in bad taste” even within the family. Poor people, in contrast, can’t choose not to talk about finances in their family because the bills keep coming due. Low income kids know because they contribute to the family income just as soon as they can. At 14 you can start working legally, and they do.
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Probably true for some, certainly not all as evidenced here.
@OhiBro that was exceptionally well stated. thank you for that
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Lol, I know the “pizza” experience. Back in the Dark Ages, while my HYP was just under $10k a year, including room and board (still represented 20% of my parents’ gross income), my parents paid for my college education other than the $2,500 FISL loan I could take out. No pizza on that budget. So if I wanted pizza and beer on weekends, it meant a trip to the Psychology building to sign up to be a Guinea pig. It was actually an easy and interesting $15-25.
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When my guy was an RA for freshmen (3 years) he always made sure to promote all the free options available at his college so students would know they existed. He took his whole floor to them as “events.” (I’m sure some may have skipped out, but he had a lot who attended.) Unfortunately, not all RAs did that.
I don’t know for sure, but it also seems like his school separated dorms based upon who had need and who didn’t. As a freshman, all of those around him were also on scholarship of some sort. None were full pay. He knew full pay classmates and they tended to live together elsewhere. It was either by design or because ED kids got to select where they lived and chose those dorms for whatever reason. Either way, it worked out well. It’s nice when those without significant spending money aren’t surrounded by “everybody” who has it.
I still recall a phone call from him telling us about the spending habits of others. New computers/cars/whatever. It’s a different world. I’m glad at the private school I attended for 10th grade my friends “got it” and paid for me to do things with them. If they hadn’t, it’d have been a really lonely year. I had no spending money at all. Once an elementary school kid ran past me loudly saying, “Buy new clothes!” I didn’t even know the kid, but my thrift store clothes caught their attention for whatever reason. What they didn’t know was I couldn’t “just go buy clothes, esp to their standards.”
There are many memories I’ve forgotten in my life, both from age and radiation due to the brain tumor. Some will likely never be forgotten. I wish I could pick and choose which ones are which.
My kids know we will never be among the wealthy class. As our income rises (quite a bit now that college costs are done!), so does our charitable giving. We use enough to enjoy life, but don’t forget those who need more just to live.
And yes, as @fiftyfifty1 said, there are kids at our school who work to pay the bills as soon as they are able to. If they want electricity or groceries, it’s up to them.
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What it means, is that the roommate has no common sense.
It always amazes me that people would spend a fortune on frivolous stuff, but then complain about taxes.
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It could likely mean $1200 is pocket change for the roommate. There truly are kids out there who never have to consider how much something costs.
Kids only know what they experience growing up.
A comedian once said she didn’t realize most people didn’t leave a fifth of Vodka out for Santa Claus until she was an adult. It’s quite human to assume what you experience is normal for most people.
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Some people may be more comfortable talking about (their) money on a somewhat anonymous forum than non-anonymously to people who know them well.
Also, to the extent that some people are concerned about wealth-associated status, some people prefer not to talk directly about money to those who know them, but try to signal wealth with expensive status symbols.
I think this professor is a little silly to be shocked that 75% of her students knew the answer approximately, and 25% thought it was $100,000 or greater. (The $800,000 answer i think was pretty clearly someone trying to get a rise). I think that’s a pretty good chunk of kids who were close to the answer. In my own household, we live below our means, are pretty frugal, and never told our kids our earnings. They’d probably assume we make less than we do (which, hahaha I don’t mean to imply is that much) I definitely think a lot of kids don’t have firsthand knowledge of what the adults around them make. I also think the professor’s implication was that the “rich” kids made up most of the 25%, but I’d be equally inclined to think it’s the low income kids who might “feel” like everyone around them at college come from families who make more, and so they might be inclined to think the average is very high. Hard to say without a definitive answer which type of kid was overestimating the average. I myself was first-gen in college, but was lucky to have my parents and grandparents and the college itself take care of the college costs (no loans for me, what a gift!), but I paid every penny of my spending money. Pretty much all of my friends at my T10 college came from more affluent families. Back then, financial aid wasn’t as generous and I’m sure the makeup of socio-economic classes was even less diverse than today. I did take on summer waitressing jobs that gave me plenty of cash (way more than minimum wage), and worked during the school year. Where my college was located, it was easy to babysit on a Friday night and make over $100 cash, and this was 25 years ago. I also waitressed some semesters at college and had an on campus job some years, and felt fortunate that these work experiences enabled me to participate in the pizza, etc. I probably averaged 10 hours a week of paid work during the school year. I was lucky to not have to contribute to my family’s home expenses, of course—I was just taking care of my spending money. I also think that ALL kids went out to dinner less back then. It was definitely perceived as special to do so, even for my affluent friends. And there was no Starbucks, etc. I think today there are more kids who go out to eat with an astonishing frequency. My kids have friends from all different SES levels. Interestingly, there is not a straight correlation to how much spending money they have. One friend with 2 doctor parents is expected to pay for all her spending money, and as she isn’t inclined to do excessive paid jobs (very overextended in on campus club activities), she doesn’t have much money to go out, etc. Whereas another FGLI friend on full financial aid, gets a $2000 grant from the school for spending money plus she’s savvy enough to take advantage of her school’s brand name to do online tutoring for a shocking $100 per hour, and does this almost 10 hours per week. She is one of the biggest nice restaurant consumers on campus. But of course I don’t mean to say that it’s not a real thing for FGLI kids to feel like they have fewer resources, just that I see some interesting cases that turn out differently. It sure would be nice if everyone did think about the friends with the least spending money when making plans, and act thoughtfully so everyone would be comfortable. It’s something I’m conscious of even as an adult making plans with my adult friends, and taught my kids to do that (and I sure hope they always act that way), that would go a long way towards helping people navigate or avoid awkward situations, and help everything be more inclusive.
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I know a few people in real life who bring money into pretty much every conversation. Talk openly about how much they make, spend on this that or the other thing, etc. There are some bragging and unsecurity issues involved without question. Just seems really odd to me though.
Makes even less sense here though because very few people know anyone in real life. So who are you bragging to? But you will see the same group of people who for whatever reason always drop dollars when not needed or called for in context. Seems to me its likely they do the same thing in real life and that just carries over to the online world.
It made the guardian:
Many moons ago I had an interesting college experience. I went to a Top 20 school. My parents made about 60% of the avg household income back then. So I got plenty of financial aid and I had a couple of scholarships that were paid directly to me and not to the school. I did take some loans. Basically my folks didn’t have to come up with any money for me to go to college.
I had worked every Summer and saved up a decent amount of money. Also eventually my parents gave me the bit of money that was saved for me for college. So I had a nice little nest egg for a college kid.
Now at this school there were definitely some well to do people. Here was an interesting dynamic. Since I had my own money I didn’t have to answer to anyone to spend it. Also my parents couldn’t hold anything over my head since they weren’t paying for school. So while some rich kids at times had their parents getting on them about spending money I didn’t. I had some serious independence. Let me tell you that feeling was great at that age. I am sure I spent some money frivolously, but I grew up quick. I rented an apartment for the last 2 years. Paid my bills myself. Had to solve my own problems.
Overall I never did anything too crazy, but if I wanted a pizza and some beer I always had the funds. But when I wanted to go to the Sugar Bowl in 1992 I went with friends. I didn’t ask my parents I told them not that they would have ever said no since I was paying my own way.
Financial freedom is a great thing. I haven’t always enjoyed it in adult life, but living within my means makes life easier when something goes bad.
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The huge issue is that a very large number of these kids are the ones who are hired to the government agencies who enact economic policy, the think-tanks and other organizations which formulate economic policy and become the politicians who determine economic policy. The fact that so many falsely believe that most people are making enough to easily afford homes, vehicles, and health care is likely one of the reasons that the government is not addressing the fact that this is simply not true.
If a person believes that the personal average income is $100,000, they likely think that the salary of newly hired undergraduates is more than enough to start paying back $32,700 or so in student debt.
If they think that workers make, on average, $100,000 a year, they do not see why it’s a problem that average in-state tuition is around $10,000 a year.
If they think that workers are making $100,000 a year, they see no problem with average healthcare spending being $12,000 a year.
It will affect how they formulate tax code, it will affect how they determine financial aid, and the number of people that they assume will require government help. It will determine how much they will decide to add to sales tax, etc.
Worse than all that, it will set up in their mind the idea that most American workers can achieve a salary of $100,000, and therefore those who are making less than that must be lazy or incompetent, and therefore there is no reason for any sort of government support for low income families.
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