Not saying this is an overgeneralization, but…No, I’ll go ahead and say it: This is an overgeneralization. A gross overgeneralization.
Honestly, if you’re upper-middle-class (so can spend $140K total) with a kid who can get in to Middlebury/Vassar/Colgate, you have a ton of options. There’s the 2+2 plan. There are unis abroad within your price range. There are a bunch of colleges where you can get enough merit money to fit financially. There’re even (whispers) in-state publics. And AP and CLEP may save you money as well. And if you really really need that name-brand degree, going somewhere on a full-tuition scholarship for undergrad and then paying for a shiny elite Masters is also an option.
So it’s rather hard for me to be sympathetic to folks in that situation (speaking as someone who is upper-middle-class now but was able to attend an Ivy-equivalent only because of large amounts of fin aid from the state and alma mater as well as loans). Especially since some people in that situation seem pretty ignorant of the opportunities and quality out there (even if a quality education is paramount for you).
For some reason, I hear much less talk about the top 10 percentile kid from a family making 5-figures (who’s family’s total college contribution may total around $10K) in a state where quality publics have in-state tuition north of $15K/year.
That kid has a much tougher row to hoe in terms of attending any college (even though, academically, they are qualified), yet there’s so much more bellyaching about how (50th percentile) Junior can’t get in to BC these days instead and has to settle for UMass instead.
@Zinhead: NU in 1990 certainly wasn’t giving students grants so that they could work non-paying summer internships or flying students out to NYC/DC/SF to network for jobs (or had an entrepreneurship center. . . or a design center. . . or a bunch of other centers).
So yes, there is a qualitative difference.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek Re: your post #300 and the link to the thread about merit aid, it’s interesting that the OP on that thread starts out her posts in defense of merit aid. I’ve spent a lot of time on CC over the years - too much - and I’ve never seen that stance - anti-merit aid - as a topic of discussion before nor as a reoccurring comment from posters. Quite the opposite. Posters constantly tell those not eligible for FA to go in search of merit aid. Therefore, IMO it has zero bearing to this thread.
I really enjoyed reading this thread, here is my perspective as an “outsider”. It’s an honest observation, not meant to be offensive to anyone.
First, let me say that I empathize with OP. I grew up poor and went to “free” college in Europe, and my first couple of years in the US (some 3 decades ago) were spent in NE. I noticed the sentiment OP expresses among my new found UMC friends – state schools are inadequate, if you don’t get into HYP you “settle” for BC or BU or LAC etc. The thought of sending your kid to state flagship in MA or flyover country bordered on heresy, and the mention of any school in Alabama induced laughter followed by explanation that those schools are for dumb people. When I went to parties / social events, one of the first questions people asked was “Where did you go to school?” When I went with my American GF (now wife of almost 30 years), she was asked the same question. Where you went to school was very important and it determined someone’s social status in a wide range of settings. The peer pressure on parents to get their kids into the right schools was extremely high.
I left NE over 20 years ago but still keep in touch with few people. They express exact same sentiment OP does. It makes them sad, it makes them angry. They are correct in their observation of how things changed over the years, and I empathize with them, because I understand where they are coming from. Clearly, the peer pressure that I have not noticed anywhere else in the country still persists in NE, and it causes great anxiety among UMC people still living in that bubble, but now priced out of formerly affordable options.
Just the other day I told one of them that my junior HS daughter (with very high stats) is not even considering any east coast school – she is fine with our state flagship, and will also apply to one or 2 NMF schools like Oklahoma or Alabama. She was in disbelief – her kids went to BC, “great school!”, we should consider it, why do I want to “punish” my daughter?
Yep, it’s a different world out there in NE. Over the years, we lived in GA, TX, MN, and CO, and not once have I come across such sentiment. State flagships are well regarded, that’s where most smart kids go. They study hard, get good grades, get internships, get jobs, move on with their lives. Not once was I or my wife asked where we went to school – people judge you based on your work ethic, character, willingness to help your neighbors and community. I like this world much better.
As for the comparison between European and US colleges (I experienced both), let me explain how the “free college” works. It’s free tuition (covered by very high taxes BTW), that’s it. There are some fees (varies among schools/countries) but they are low. Room and board is never covered, and that’s expensive in Europe. Most kids stay at home and commute via public transportation. Nothing wrong with it, I did it that way too. If you cannot commute, you either live with relatives if you have any in that town, or you rent which costs money. If your parents cannot pay that (most cannot), you borrow money (you get student loans for that purpose). It’s a no-frill environment – some buildings where you go to study, and at the end of the year you take tests.
Going on college tours with my kids here in the US (first one 3 years ago) was an eye opener: manicured lawns, meticulous landscaping, world-class rec centers, multiple outstanding cafeterias throughout campus, beautiful dorms, huge stadiums, even ice rinks – it felt like visiting country clubs! How could anyone not like it? And these were all state schools, with very reputable engineering programs! On every campus we visited, I told both of my kids something like “wow, I can so see myself living and studying here for 4 years”. And the answer? Something like “Well, dad, this is America, get used to it, your standards are very low”. And it hit me right there why the schools are so expensive to begin with: we are not selling education to our kids – we are selling them experience!
One final important note. There is this pressure on kids in the US that if you don’t go to college, you are screwed in life. So we have millions of kids, mostly from lower income families, who load up on student and parents loans, and then either drop out of college, or complete their degree in a major that doesn’t make them employable, unable to pay off their loans. I had people tell me over the years how unfair it is to these kids, and how much better European system of free college education would work for them. I always say nonsense – it’s just the opposite. In order to go to free college in Europe, kids get sorted out in earlier age, usually around 14 (depends on the country). You have to test in to college prep HS; if your scores are low you go to vocational track. In some systems, you have to make decision at 16 what you want to major in college because that will determine remainder of your HS curriculum. So these kids in the US would have been told at 14 they are not good for college. It’s how they control costs – not everybody gets to go to free college.
Sorry for the very long post.
@tallgrass: No need to apologize. That was a wonderful read.
I do think that many people on CC suffer from a lack of perspective and that if you know people/relatives who have experienced uni in different countries as well as different types of colleges in the US and lived in different regions of the US, it would help you keep things in perspective.
I do agree that so many people (especially Americans), when they speak of a “college education”, mean so much more than an education but also the experience and also the status associated with attending certain schools.
The University of London International distills a (rigorous) education to its bare-bones and is super cheap (less than $10K total for a degree), yet Americans are not jumping to get that.
If you solely want a Harvard education and degree, you can get that through Harvard Extension School (and take only courses taught by Harvard profs), yet there seems to be stigma attached to that as well.
If you solely want an MIT education, MIT actually lays out a ton a material in OCW that allows you to learn (though no degree). One guy took in the equivalent of a 4-year MIT curriculum in one year: https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/myprojects/mit-challenge-2/
I can only speak to the opportunities in Mass here on the east coast. I can say that the education opportunities are very limited for a top student who is not a tippy top NMF or the like. Community colleges and city public schools are not quite up to challenging a top student here in MA. I do agree that our flagship and Lowell offer the most rigor. But these massive schools do not appeal to all top students who thrive in smaller more intimate classes. I was very surprised to fine that there are not too many choices here in MA. We wanted to stay within the $30-35K/year range and found it very challenging. The private schools here in MA are very very expensive and beyond the reach of an upper middle class by national standards. A non tippy top student can expect to pay $55 to 60K a year for a private school in MA. Many MA families are challenged to pay this per year.
I feel for the OP. My experience has not been that far off.
@tallgrass , brilliant post. I have been thinking for a while that if colleges scaled back on their building frenzy/arms race and everyone did not expect pristine dorms, gourmet food, climbing walls etc… we could cut the cost of college in half and have a lot less angst over price.
In utter and complete sincerity, I am seriously hoping for a solid answer to this question: Upon what evidence do you base this claim?
@MassDaD68 A good student from Mass who attends the flagship with any ambition or creativity can craft a fine education. You have the five colleges exchange program, you have travel abroad options, a fine honors program, you can study at almost any other state college in the country, independent projects… All this fussing over ideal fit and perfect environments to thrive. What a rude awakening for these kids when they have to get their first job in a work environment that is not completely perfect for them.
@vistajay: “I have been thinking for a while that if colleges scaled back on their building frenzy/arms race and everyone did not expect pristine dorms, gourmet food, climbing walls etc… we could cut the cost of college in half and have a lot less angst over price.”
And yet, people are not clamoring to enter CUNY’s at well less than half the full-price of a private.
That’s the problem.
@Tallgrass - Great post but, to be fair, people in the South do measure others by which school one is an alumni of. However, that judgement is generally based on the quality of the school’s football/basketball team, not something as distasteful as academics.
@MassDaD68: COA for SUNY’s even if OOS is in the $30-35K range, and some are pretty small (Geneseo has less than 7K, for instance).
@PurpleTitan , “And yet, people are not clamoring to enter CUNY’s at well less than half the full-price of a private.
That’s the problem.”
That’s because higher education in the USA is a business, and in a competitive marketplace you have to have your meditation rooms and cookie bars etc…, oh and brand new buildings going up every year, so that you can justify the price tag and keep your brand prestige. Well then the UMC can treat it like a business too, by chasing merit and not overpaying for the extras.
Sounds like the CUNY issue is unique to that area of the country where the state schools have been ignored for a long time.
“Well then the UMC can treat it like a business too, by chasing merit and not overpaying for the extras.”
Certainly, but when they then complain that those privates that have all those extras cost too much (and are also too hard to get in to now), then that’s a bit rich.
@doschicos As a parent of students who actively pursue large merit scholarships, I probably read the forums with a different filter. This conversation has come up several times in terms of discussions like UW-Madison’s decision to not offer merit, UKy’s decision to reduce merit scholarships, etc. The argument is that merit only aids the wealthy and hurts the poor.
We are not UMC, so for the most part I have just been reading this thread. I would also never express thoughts similar to the OP b/c my kids are very happy to attend lower ranked schools with merit scholarships. They don’t even bother to apply to schools where large merit scholarships aren’t offered. We are solidly MC and there is no way we can afford our expected parental contribution. If merit is argued out of existence (and there have been numerous articles popping up on places like Inside Higher Ed arguing that position as well, there will be a lot of kids w/o options. Just google Inside Higher Ed merit hurts poor) then students like our kids will be hurt, just like the poor. (I think FA for the poor is vital.)
And @dfbdfd, I don’t know anything about Mass, but I do agree with @MassDaD68’s comment that you quoted. (I didn’t read the rest of that post, so I am not positive of the context.) But, if you think in terms of top students, many are at an academic level that surpasses the offerings of a CC. Many of these kids are graduating from high school with 50+ credit hours, DE hrs for 200+ level classes, etc. I know for my own kids, the local directional university has very limited course offerings that they could take. When I took my dd to visit UAH bc of their scholarship, the foreign language dept told her not to come there b/c they had nothing to offer her. (Foreign lang is one of her major focuses.) So, yes, I can see scenarios where there are not state universities that work. (There are no in-state universities here that offer Russian at high enough level for my dd to continue to pursue it at the collegiate level. Meeting the academic needs of a top student just might be a real issue. 
That said, I have no knowledge of the city public schools that @MassDaD68 references.)
@tallgrass - I agree 100% with your post. Lot of entitlement mentality in this country now. Commuting from home is very common in lot of countries. In US, commuter schools are bad and you are not getting 'college experience" by attending them! Also, going thru community college and then university is considered poor option. Unless you are planning to involve in research starting from day 1, I am not sure why community colleges are bad option for first 2 years.
UW-Madison is evidently increasing merit money now to get in the race:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/12/18/university-wisconsin-ups-its-merit-aid-effort-better-compete-peers
“Madison, for example, plans to increase its merit aid levels not just for resident students, but for nonresident students as well.”
Their OOS tuition has also increased substantially in recent years, however.
Just a word on this:
In the NE this is not necessarily about trying to pigeonhole or assess someone. Sometimes it’s about trying to make a connection, like people elsewhere in the country asking what church you attend or what town you’re from. Because the region’s not very big and a lot of kids attend small local schools the response would likely be something like, “Trinity? My brother went there!” or “UVM? I went to a great party when my team played soccer there.” or “Do you know Joan Morgan? She must have been at Smith at the same time as you.” What might be off-putting to people from the rest of the country is that that data bank of connections doesn’t generally exist in the minds of New Englanders for the larger midwestern or Western state schools, or if it does it seems ridiculous to ask if someone knows one out of a class of 10,000, as opposed to one of a class of 400 at a small LAC.
@tallgrass my experience is similar to yours, but replace “Europe” with Canada. Colleges or University’s are a bit more like real life, and the College experience is less idealized.
The lack of athletic scholarships make admissions in Canada, and, I assume, Europe, simpler.