@doschicos. Not on this thread, but here: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1988941-in-defense-of-merit-aid-p1.html
@AREYOUTHEONE - it isn’t just people who demand sympathy who aren’t agreeing with you. My family fell within the income bracket your would like be included in need based aide. I don’t on any planet think my family deserves need based aide. We didn’t save right for college (we saved just nowhere near what we should have been.) We were idiots. We were oblivious to what college cost. And even despite my upbringing, I got to a point where I really thought we were doing all we could - I mean our lifestyle wasn’t lavish. It wasn’t until husband lost his job that we realized how much we could have cut our spend long, long ago and how different that would have made our college search. But the reality is, we knew several years before that happened that we were not going to be able to afford our EFC. (Oh my word, how I cried when I found out what it was… but it was about 15 years late to do anything about it)
But I accepted our mistake - never once did I think that anyone owed us anything because of it. We had honest conversation with the kid. And since the kid is smart not just on paper so he understood and was fine not being a part of the prestige race at his school. He had one set of options before the layoff, a smaller set after. He aggressively pursued merit opportunities knowing that commuting to a state school was the fallback. He was fortunate enough to get a full ride to an OOS directional that many are somewhat confused that such a high stats kid would attend but we both believe affords him some exceptional opportunities. But you know what, he’d have been okay at the state school too. It simply would not have been a tragedy.
He has many friends heading off to some impressive schools. Some of whom can afford to, some of whom have schools have been generous to and some of whom will be facing a lot of debt. He doesn’t envy any of them.
As to the other tangent, I agree with the posters who are saying many HS students are doing way harder work than we did in HS. Not even just the physics and calculus, but even the kid’s IB History class seems way more like college history courses I took than the World History Honors I took in HS. And I took the practice test on the new SAT. I bombed it. I wasn’t the student he is but man, I was still an honors student. I wouldn’t be at his school.
@roethlisburger “Are the SUNY and CUNY colleges truly as bad as the OP makes them out to be?”
No. Of the 10 best colleges for the “highest mobility rate” (lower income to higher income), 5 of them are CUNYs. And SUNY Stony Brook is also typically on that list. It’s a little bit apples to oranges because the OP isn’t talking about low income students, but they must be doing something right.
http://www.jjay.cuny.edu/news/new-report-ranks-john-jay-10th-nation-student-social-mobility
"The City University was also lauded by the New York Times as a system that “propelled almost six times as many low-income students into the middle class and beyond as all eight Ivy League campuses.”’ Obviously that’s because the vast majority of kids at the Ivies are already rich, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/opinion/sunday/americas-great-working-class-colleges.html
@AREYOUTHEONE
You make some good points about the doughnut families. I do wish more schools could expand aid to these families, especially those who get hit even harder by living in high cost areas. But there are very few schools who could afford to be need blind, meets 100% need, as well as expanding aid. The Ivies could probably do it and a handful of other schools with multi billion endowments, but that number is small.
A few points and then I’m out bc I promised myself I would ignore threads that veer toward class warfare:
1). middle class left out in the news: https://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/pulse/missing-middle-class-college-campuses-jeff-selingo?trk=eml-email_feed_ecosystem_digest_01-hero-0-null&midToken=AQFJfcCXQ3lV9A&fromEmail=fromEmail&ut=14KQVhmeEq1TM1
2). No one expects a family of 4 with HHI of 150 to come up with $60k a year for 4 years out of current HHI. Beyond that and assets, they also consider your family earning capacity. So if you have not (been able to or decided not to) saved, they presume you can borrow and pay it over the next several years. This counters the “I just started making this much” idea. Many families hit peak earnings around this time. So they are often looking at further earnings as a source to be tapped. It can be tough for some who need to also save for retirement.
3). Nothing is free. You should always expect to pay something. Even kids with super low income pay a portion, so middle and upper middle should also pay proportionately.
4). You don’t have to slide too far down the USNWR list to get significant merit. If you want a full tuition or full ride, you go farther down, but it is free…and these are still very good schools.
5). @roethlisburger the SUNY schools are generally quite good. 2 or 3 of them hit even the USNWR top 100…S2 will likely go to one of the smaller SUNYs bc for him it is all about fit. And it will be a bargain! $23k vs 56k for my older son going OOS? If he does that, I am going to try to fund a $5k scholarship for one of his classmates at his HS for the next 4 years with the excess. (They have a foundation for that.)
6). I do not expect sympathy. I’m happy to be able to pay. Someone upthread said tell kids “we made a choice to live near your grandparents instead of a higher income potential area.” I made the opposite the priority so that I could pay. Yes, I pay a lot in taxes, housing and such, but that is why income are higher here. It’s a cost of living adjustment. And as my dad tells me, “If you pay a lot of taxes, you make a lot of money! So no complaining.” Smart man.
No. They are not bad at all. The four-year CUNYs are very good in certain things, and the Macaulay honors programs, particularly at Baruch, attract Ivy-level students who want to live in New York or who need the free tuition and extras in order to obtain a high-quality education. Baruch and Hunter are better than a lot of the privates that we see mentioned on CC and I always think “WHY?” For certain fields, like education and nursing, CUNYs are better as a practical matter in terms of becoming employed in the field. It’s not a traditional college experience, but my D’s friend went to BU for undergrad and Baruch for graduate school and says the lifestyle is very similar.
Among the SUNYs, Binghamton, Buffalo, Stonybrook, and Geneseo are very well regarded, as is the business program at Albany. I guess it’s what you’re looking for. My family is very high income after having been very poor for a long time. One of our kids had top stats and chose an OOS honors program because she wanted something very specific, and money mattered to us. We would have been in the spot of being too high income to get need-based, but having only recently come to that income, unable to pay full freight at a school matching her stats. Even if money had been no object, she still would have chosen the same program, would have still loved every minute, and would still be living the dream in her new career that she has aspired to since high school. As a parent, how does it get better than that? My last kid leveraged his musical talent for money at a lower-level school than his stats would have recommended, but he also wanted and found something specific (rather than a name) and is, so far, happy.
Kids and parents in New England are concerned with status and brand especially if you are upper middle class. No amount of money will make the state schools a cool option though you can go to the state next door’s flagship and that is cooler. There is an exchange program within New England if majors are not offered. There are study abroad options and interstate exchange programs. There are honor program which form a special community within a community. Even though many people who currently live in upper class neighborhoods went to these state schools, it will never be good enough for the some of salmon pants set. People just don’t respect their own state school in New England. A combination of historical opportunities when traveling was difficult, states are small and you must get away and status hunting/peer pressure.
Things did used to be different. My MIL had the option of commuting from home to Brown U or living away at the state school. She choose the state school live away option. But back then, people lived within their means, didn’t travel much and weren’t as obsessed with image.
@HRSMom - that is really, really cool that you are considering funding a scholarship.
@Quietlylurking
If you can leave the pursuit of prestige behind, and adopt the view that it will contribute to a young person’s education to attend college outside their home region or country, there are good quality but lower-cost colleges available. By good quality I mean schools with smaller class sizes, and few/no graduate students so undergraduates are the center of attention, rather than an afterthought. By lower-cost I mean lower COA than northeast schools,with availability of
significant merit aid(20 thousand or more a year), bringing costs to a more reasonable 25-35 thousand/year. Look to the midwest or south or Canadian primarily undergraduate colleges.
The .73 Canadian dollar makes those schools even more affordable.
Adding to @zoosermom’s post about SUNYs if you are looking to major in environmental science, then SUNY ESF cannot be beat. The program is exceptionally strong and students can also take classes at Syracuse which is adjacent to the campus. And the price tag makes it a bargain. So if you are thinking you need to go to Middlebury or Colby for a good ES program, think again.
How do 3% of the PSAT test taking fall into the 99th percentile? Or do some of the lower state cutoffs make up the gap?
Out of curiosity, is it absolutely taboo to consider a community college? We are in the same boat here in California with a ridiculously high EFC.
My son wasn’t absolutely sure what he would major in, so we told him that if he went to community college for 2 years (made a solid decision about a major) we would pay for the additional 2 years of a private school. As part of the community college honor program, he got first choice of all classes during semester registrations and was able to finish in 2 years. There are LOTS of transfer scholarships available. As a transfer, SAT and ACT scores don’t even have to be considered by most. It is mostly GPA. He has been courted by many of the universities you have been talking about but didn’t want to relocate to the east coast. Not only has he been accepted to all California UC’s he’s applied to. He has been accepted to the privates as well with their top scholarships.
At first my son (and some of his friends that also excel academically) felt embarrassed about going to the community college. Many of their friends went away. However, he soon realized how much sense this choice made.
He graduates on Friday and tells us he will tell us which school he has finally chosen then. (Transfer students have until June 1 to decide for the UCs in California)
If your’re going to attend Community College with hopes of transferring to state flagship you might as well study up and take some CLEP tests Very economical way to earn credits
Starting at community college is a good option for many California students, and both the community colleges and state universities (UCs and CSUs) are set up to provide strong transfer pathways for lots of students.
However, in some other states, the community colleges are much more academically limited for transfer-prep students, and much more expensive. Students and parents in the northeast might be shocked to compare their community college in-state tuition to the California community college in-state tuition of $1,380 for an academic year’s worth of courses (30 semester credit units).
@suzyQ7: “A B student in New England 25 years ago easily got into BC, BU, Providence, Brandies, etc… and their middle class parents could afford the full pay sticker price. That is not the case now.”
Well, as @doschicos pointed out, a 3.0 GPA now is like a 2.6 GPA 25 years ago. A 3.0 GPA 25 years ago is more like a 3.3 GPA now, and that certainly may be good enough to get someone in to Providence (maybe BU as well). There has definitely been grade inflation in HS.
Furthermore, this is kind of like the real estate example. In 1990, you could probably buy a small apartment on the Lower East Side for what? $50K? Less? Now it would be half a million? Closer to a million? And there’d be more competition for it as well. But the LES of now isn’t the LES of 1990 either. Likewise, the BC/Brandeis of now offers far more opportunities and amenities than the BC/Brandeis of 1990. They still have the same school name, just like that apartment has the same address, but it’s a different type of good.
@cjpski: But at no American college do the vast majority of students pay sticker price.
So basically, yes, it’s a system where everything is listed like a Lamborghini (except for in-state publics) but there is haggling, discriminatory pricing, and special discounts everywhere.
@JerseyParents, there are multiple levels to the NMS program. The first cutoff (a bit more than the top 3%) is for any recognition at all. 2/3 of those become Commended Scholars (no $$), leaving 1/3, or slightly over 1% as semi-finalists. 90% of semi-finalists make it to the finalist phase (around 1%) and a bit over half of those kids receive actual scholarships.
The link in post #285 explains it well.
Schools certainly have more amenities, but do they offer more opportunities? Given the much larger share of the population that has college degrees, and the large percentage of college degree holders working jobs that do not require college degrees, it is not clear that say the Northwestern of 1990 offered less than the Northwestern of 2017.
As a NYer, I think we are very fortunate to have a community college system as part of CUNY/SUNY system that gives students of options. All CUNY/SUNY CC’s have articulation agreements with the 4 year schools.
Cornell has transfer agreements with 42 of the SUNY/CUNY CC’s
https://admissions.cals.cornell.edu/apply/transfer/transfer-agreements
There is the binghamton express with corning community college
https://www.corning-cc.edu/news/binghamton-express-2016-07-28
BAP- Broome and Binghamton
https://www.corning-cc.edu/news/binghamton-express-2016-07-28
NYU CCTOP (Community College Transfer Program)
http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/cctop/faculty/schools
Low income students who start out in community college in EOP (SUNY CC) or College Discovery (CUNY), can transfer into HEOP programs in NYS (including Cornell/Barnard/NYU/Colgate/Columbia/Hamilton/etc) and get full financial aid packages. If they graduate from an opportunity program they get Free tuition at SUNY graduate programs including Upstate and Downstate Medical school.
For those who are quick to poo-poo community college should remember that ther e is more that one route to take you from point A to point B.