<p>"But do you really have to be a certain kind of minority in order to make a cultural contribution?"</p>
<p>Of course not. However, American colleges, particularly the top ones, want to have their student population reflect the US population. Thus students from underrepresented ethnicities (including people of Mexican descent) and races are highly desired.</p>
<p>When it comes to the most competitive colleges, very few students who are African American, Mexican American, Puerto Rican or of Native American heritage qualify for admissions -- far below the percentage of such people in the population. Thus, high scoring URM students like your daughter are highly sought after.</p>
<p>Similarly,colleges -- particularly the top ones -- have a hard time recruiting qualified students who are first generation college and are of low income background. Thus, such students -- regardless of race/ethnicity -- are strongly recruited. </p>
<p>There is an abundance of well off and middle class students from educated backgrounds who are making their own cultural contribution to the campuses of highly competitive colleges.</p>
<p>Absolutely not. All you need are the good grades and being a URM. There simply aren't enough high-scoring URM's to go around all the top colleges like the Ivies, Stanford et al. As a result, they're not going to have the luxury of picking and choosing between candidates based on what they can contribute to the "culture" of the college.</p>
<p>Right now, they desperately need the URM's just so they can put them in their end-of-the-year stats. Colleges always talk about how many URM's they have in their student body, because the more they have the better they look.</p>
<p>So I wouldn't worry about that, and just tell your daughter to focus on her studies because that's really all that matters in the end.</p>
<p><em>edit</em> northstarmom beat me to it :) <em>edit</em></p>
<p>So, in response to my question back on page 1 of this thread, is the true definition of under-represented minority the "majority" minorities (Native American, Black, Hispanic), or the actual definition of minority?</p>
<p>i've always understood URM to mean basically non-asian minorities. some people think that, for example, chinese, although a minority group in the united states, are over-represented at some schools. on the other hand, the percentage of native americans in schools is much lower than the percentage of the population- hence the under part of under-represented. shahein, i'm not sure where persian fits in. URM is not the actual definition of minority.</p>
<p>This is just crazy. I got the application packet and everything and i am really unsure of applying. I dont even know what to think, life is just kind of hard. Plus i missed the harvard Washington DC area little convention thing, because of the damn bus. Well let me ask you guys some questions so i can finally clear the air in my mind.IS THERE A LOT OF POOR BLACK OR SPANISH KIDS WITH SATS IN THE 2100-2400 RANGE WITH GOOD GRADES AND EC, AND HOW MANY PACKETS WITH APPS DOES HARVARD SEND OUT. Plus the app says EA ends Nov 1, but says i cant apply EA anywhere else, Well U maryland reg ends Jan 1 so does that mean i have to wait until DEC 15 to get reject/admit and then quickly do the app for maryland just in case? Also the app only has 8 AP slots and 8 EC spots, and the spot for academic honors is way to small, as are outside activites. Also IS IT HORRIBLE TO WRITE OUTSIDE THE LINES OR SQUEEZE EVERYTHING IN OR SHOULD I SAVE FOR THE ESSAY, BUT THERE IS NO REAL ESSAY THAT SAYS WHAT HAVE YOU DONE. Also when applying with the common app does that mean although Harvard is EA every school will recieve my app for reg, or do i have to do supplementals for every school. I heard of a IVy common app that has like very small supplementals, does it exist. Also the EC spots say hrs/week, but what if some were over the summer. Also do they count work as an EC because i had to work a lot to help my family. Also does writing a second optional essay,seem like i am looking for charity. I also heard that they only take like 140 each of black and spanish kids, is this becuase they are hard to find, arent competitive, or its just usual. Also if i have a application waiver from college board should i use one of them on Harvard, would they think that i cant even come up with the 65 dollars, even though family income is around 18K but now is at a low of 9K. Plus i won a lot of scholarships, and i want them to know that i can fund a lot of the cost myself, but there are no real places to put that especially since the space says Awards and Honors and isnt that for like Most Outstanding this and that and not 10,000 Scholarship. I really dont think i have a chance, because how will they know what i have gone through if its no where on the app. I mean i worked hard for everything and i just couldnt get perfect grades or perfect scores. Life was kind of hard. Plus i saw a thread in Zuma Roster thing about a vietnamese immigrant who had similar everything as me accept he came from a asian country and i came from a african country and that i kinda live in a well less off community (im the only one with a working computer and actual internet access in my apartement complex). Also i heard that they cluster the apps by high school, and if so there is a kid in my school with almost exactely everthing the same except like .06 more GPA, but an sat like 300 pts less. He came from a spanish country and had to struggle the same way. So does that lessen my chances. Also my high school just had one kid who made it to Harvard, PTon, Yale,..... with remarkably similar stats except a 4.0 uw with much lower Sats and lil more activity in sports. My high school has like 4 kids who go out of state yearly usually small colleges in flordia or new york like New York college and Florida A&T, and until last year never had anyone attend a top 75 school. With all that can anyone kinda come up with a consesus of what average accepted URMS have. Like say 2100 SAT, 3.75 uw/ 4.4 W, 20-25K family income, great EC, improving trend, bad high school. My stats are 2200, 3.75u, 4.4w, SAT2 800/750/720, 9K a year income and with my job its like 12K, good EC not great,including research and signed up to enter Siemens Westinghouse Science Comp and also a lot of volunteer like 350+ mostly in city churchs located near slums and hospitals, most of my EC are not sports, they are more service type.</p>
<p>The UMRP helps with questions about applying, arranges overnight visits, does recruitment in high schools, etc, for the ethnicities listed above. You do not have to belong to a particular socioeconomic bracket to ask questions of UMRP coordinators :P</p>
<p>Also, because some people on here are debating meaning of Persian, Portuguese, Hispanic, etc...again, specific to Harvard, identification of any sort is all based on "self-identification". This means that you, the applicant, are free to check one, several, or none of the race/ethnicity boxes present on the Common Application that is utilized by Harvard (and all the Ivies and many other schools). There is no verification process in place, although you are required to sign a statement stating that everything on your application is true, including self-identification of one's racial/ethnic background. But if you feel that you belong in a particular group, or groups, feel free to check the box(es) to denote such.</p>
<p>Okay I hope that cleared up some confusion about Harvard admissions. If you have more questions, feel free to ask :)</p>
<p>I applied to Harvard 4 years ago, and I didn't get in. I am a black male... I think Harvard more than any other school will reject high scoring URMs in favor of lower scoring URMs that they like more.</p>
<p>Here were my stats:
SAT- 1400 SAT IIs- 800,800,800
GPA: 3.97, Top 5%
ECs: Varsity Football, Varsity Golf, NHS, Math Team, Beta Club, Student Newspaper</p>
<p>Good stats, got in everywhere except H. I think some factors are that:
1. There was a stronger ORM applicant from my school that sends 1 or 2 kids to each Ivy a year (kid was a genius)
2. I know other URMs with lower stats who got in, they probably presented a better story</p>
<p>So as an URM applicant you don't "just need" good stats, you need a bit more. Hell good stats may be a detriment in some cases</p>
<p>Yale,
From what I've seen as an alum interviewer, I don't think that having good stats hurts anyone. What really happens is that Harvard takes far more than "good stats" into the picture when it considers applicants. </p>
<p>Since most applicants including most URMs have the stats indicating they could graduate from Harvard if accepted, Harvard adcoms have the luxury of being able to pick and choose to create a diverse class in all meanings of the word.</p>
<p>I have seen URMs and white and Asian candidates with stellar scores but not particularly impressive ECs turned down while candidates with less impressive scores, but far more impressive or rare ECs were accepted. It's possible that an EC, talent or diversity factor that is in short supply one year at one Ivy might be in abundance at another, which can lead to excellent candidates getting rejected by one Ivy yet accepted by a very similar one.</p>
<p>I also have heard about and seen some candidates with stellar scores who shot themselves in the foot by assuming that their scores would make them shoo-ins. Acting in the interview like one is bored or is God's gift is not a good idea. I suspect that students who did things like this also blew off their essays.</p>
<p>"IS THERE A LOT OF POOR BLACK OR SPANISH KIDS WITH SATS IN THE 2100-2400 RANGE WITH GOOD GRADES AND EC, AND HOW MANY PACKETS WITH APPS DOES HARVARD SEND OUT"</p>
<p>The answer to the first question is very few. Nobody knows the answer to the second question except Harvard. Having said that, Harvard only sends out app packets to people who are competitive enough to apply at Harvard.</p>
<p>If you got a packet, then that means that Harvard views you as competitive.</p>
<p>The way that many minorities receive applications is because they were high scoring students on the PSAT. Harvard and many other schools get lists of students who scored above X (ie, they don't get your actual PSAT score), and then send applications to these students. This is how you get "viewed as competitive" so to speak. There are other ways people get sent apps too, and any student who requests an app can get one as well.</p>
<p>YaleSocietyMember: I can feel your frustration. But I really believe this is not the case. Having worked as a minority student recruiter, I and other student recruiters have seen many, many highly qualified minority applicants not accepted. However, those who were accepted were also highly qualified. This has to do with the fact that about 87% of applicants are "admittable", but only about 10% get in, minorities included. So I assure you that with my anecdotal evidence based on experience, Harvard doesn't accept less qualified minorites just based on some sob story of poverty and underprivilege. And it seems pretty silly to think that good "stats" will cause one to be rejected, doesn't it?</p>
<p>EAS, there's no frustration, I just graduated from Y and have a sick job and had a sick time, I'm just trying to share my experience so future applicants have all the information possible.</p>
<p>My point was that contrary to what was being posted in this thread, Harvard is not thirsting for URM applicants with good stats- it has plenty already. Good stats are not sufficient for URM candidates, which is what I always hear and which is what I know not to be true. Good ECs and a good story is as important. I guess this is directed to eyezonharvard.</p>
<p>As for the "Good stats may be a detriment," I think stats in the 1400-1500 range may be, while 1500+ scores are golden and 1300+ scores are good with a great story.</p>
<p>The factor of the matter is this. A URM applicant scoring a 1350 on the SAT with a "good URM story" has a good chance of getting in before the URM with a 1400 with a not-so-good "URM story". Why? Just like every college in the U.S. Harvard likes to have people with good "sob stories" in their class. So what's gonna happen is that Harvard is gonna weigh the value of the sob story against the value of your slightly higher stats. </p>
<p>Now going back to your original argument. When I say "good stats", I really mean excellent stats. By excellent stats I mean 1480+ on the SAT I. You're absolutely right about good stats not being enough. This is Harvard, "good" stats URM or no URM are gonna have a hard time getting you in. However, excellent stats as a URM are as close as you're gonna get to guaranteed acceptance (and by guaranteed I mean 70-80% chance of getting in - compare that to the 10% overall chance...)</p>
<p>However, I do disagree with your argument that 1400-1500 are a detriment. They're not. Higher scores are NEVER a detriment. The fact of the matter is that if you didn't have the 1400-1500 score Harvard wouldn't even consider you without a good "sob story". If anything the 1400-1500 is putting you in the running...</p>
<p><em>Note</em> I'm assuming that the candidates we're talking about here have 3.9+ GPAs, top 10% ranking, and a few EC's to bring to the table. I find that when we have discussions on URM admissions, SAT scores seem to be the biggest factor since that's where URM's lag significantly behind non-URM's.</p>
<p>eyez, I think we generally agree. The issue is there is too much anecdotal evidence of 1400, 1500+ URM SAT scorers who don't get into Harvard for people to say that URMs with these scores are close to "gauranteed" admission. </p>
<p>I think that Harvard simply weights SAT scores and stats a lot LESS for URM applicants. I am not sure that on numbers alone, a URM with a 1450 has a much better shot at Harvard than a URM with a 1350, wheras I think for other applicants, numerically the 1450 does have the better shot. Of course, without raw data from H, we will never know. But 1400+, good stats, good ECs, URM doesn't gaurantee admission to H- not even close.</p>
<p>with those SAT scores you wanted to go to HARVARD? No offense...and normally I wouldn't comment but it seems like you actually thought you would be accepted. If I applied with those scores I would be hopeful, but certainly not suprised at the rejection letter. And no my scores aren't <em>much</em> better so I am not some arrogant 1600/4.0. Yeah, I am URM also.</p>
<p>"The factor of the matter is this. A URM applicant scoring a 1350 on the SAT with a "good URM story" has a good chance of getting in before the URM with a 1400 with a not-so-good "URM story"</p>
<p>This is true, too, of nonURM candidates. It's just that there are far more nonURMs than URMs with the full package: high grades, high scores, and at least one or two extraordinary ECs.</p>
<p>It is a fallacy that the URM or nonURM candidate with the highest stats will automatically be the one with the advantage. In many cases, an excellent but not val/sal gpa combined with extraordinary ECs combined with good (1350+ old SATs) student will get the nod over the valedictorian with 1600s and weak or ordinary ECs.</p>
<p>I guess I'll post my stats. I think I'm gonna apply to Yale EA, but will def apply to Harvard RD. My main concerns are that I only have one really strong EC that I showed a passion for since Freshman year (although the rest of my ECs and volunteering are probably at least decent), have SAT scores around the area where some of you said they might hurt me, and am upper middle class, the URM group Harvard seems least interested with.</p>
<p>GPA: 97 avg unweighted; class rank about 5-7 out of about 475.
PSAT: 204 selection index (71 verbal, 66 math)
SAT: 800 Verbal; 700 Math; 770 Writing (Most likely not retaking to devote more time to acing SAT II's)
SAT II: 800 World History
Taking Math IC and either US History or Spanish next fall (I'd def do better on US hist than spanish but I'm not sure if I sh0uld take span since I've already taken a history test)
My school offers no AP classes (sucks yeah I know) but every class I've ever taken has been honors.</p>
<p>ECs:
Will be Quiz Bowl captain next year (my strongest activity, pretty hardcore about it)
Starter on succesful Boys Varsity Volleyball (all yrs varsity)
Boys Varsity Basketball (1 yr freshman/ 1 yr jv) (debating if I should not play this next year and devote more time to quiz bowl)
Officer in History Club
National Honor Society (will most likely at least receive cabinet position next year)
Communications Club
AAU basketball every year
A few other clubs not worth mentioning
Volunteer Work:
Teach religious ed once a week through school
Tutor both in school and on saturdays</p>
<p>Background: Black male from Catholic school on Long Island; immigrant parents from Caribbean (although now so well off that I won't qualify for finacial aid)
Was sick on PSAT, so will only be Commended Scholar, but will probably be National Achievement.</p>
<p>Emperor, my stats and background are almost identical to yours, with some minor differences (my fam isn't Carribean, your class rank was higher than mine, I took a number of APs, etc.)</p>
<p>Basically you have a strong shot but you have to execute on your essay and your recommendations or you aren't a lock at Harvard. As far as Yale EA goes, I don't have experience with it (I applied to Yale RD), but I think Yale EA would be a strong shot for you. </p>
<p>Basically you have a good shot at all colleges, but at HYP you have to make your case, and I am not sure if you necessarily have to include a "sob story" but who knows.</p>