US NEWS Ranking, A few surprises

College Search & Selection
121

@undergrad2018 - my claim was actually sort of narrow, namely that the top 1000 students at UF are going to be smarter than the top 1000 at, say, BC.

It should be common sense looking at the relative sizes of the student bodies, but if you need some evidence, look at the most recent number of NMF in the entering class. UF had 202 and BC had 14.

Don’t get me wrong. BC is a great choice for many kids. But for the very top kids it is invariably a second choice. There are a number of brilliant kids who, due to cost and the availability of a free ride for NMF, aspire to UF as a first choice. I do know a few kids who turned down HYP to go there. I don’t know any who chose BC, although I am sure there must be some.

Again, my claim was fairly narrow and limited to the attractiveness of a school to the very top in academic talent, not really a claim on the average ability of the student body, which I will agree with you is higher at BC.

122

All these different college rankings appear to cause more excitement and indigestion among parents and alumni rather than most (most, not all) high school students. I, for one, don’t disagree with US News giving a little more weight to social mobility. Some schools will rise and fall more than others due to this change. It is clear that the UC’s and state schools, in general, will rise with this category given more weight. I don’t have a problem with the admission rate being discounted either. However, I do not agree with this stampede to discount standardized test scores. This will either result in a number of students not being ready for college academics at their school or further grade inflation and lowering the academic standards.

My daughter did her own research on colleges and I stumbled onto college confidential in an attempt to get parents and students feedback on their college visits. We then did the “college visits” thing; 14 visits to 10 different schools. Large public’s and private’s, small to medium privates. Being in Virginia, had great in-state options available; UVA, W&M, VT, JMU, W&L, Richmond, etc.

In the end, my daughter chose Southern Cal (her #2 was a very well regarded, but not “top 10”, small, liberal arts school. She did not care where that school or USC was ranked. She may have chosen the smaller school but they did not have her major, only a concentration. Also, I have to admit, USC does blow you away during the admitted students day). Had top programs in her major, beautiful campus, spending money on infrastructure, experience a large city with a vibrant social life. Did the social mobility weighting affect USC? Probably, but not a whole lot, and in the end she won’t care. I believe USC is in the top five for Pell Grant students (most, if not all, UC’s are in top 20). The USC reputation of everyone being obscenely wealthy is a thing of the past.

As for me, I only had these criteria for her; 1) Is she happy?, 2) Is she getting a great education, 3) Is she engaged in university life? The answer to all these questions is yes. Good enough for me.

123

@SatchelSF I think it is difficult to compare public and private schools’ attractiveness (using that loosely) because cost is such a significant factor for most students.

The BC example presents an interesting puzzle for its admissions office because it is aware of its second-choice status for top students and it is trying to figure out how to increase yield, according to recent articles. And yet cost looms large, with BC eschewing merit in favor of need-based aid and presumably not having the same level of financial aid resources as the more highly-ranked privates above it.

124

USC’s Pell grant percentage is on the high end of highly selective private universities and private AAU members, but it is lower than that of the various UCs.

125

@suzyQ7 I had the same thought. I know BU has in the last year made extremely robust moves toward socioeconomic diversity: ramping up Posse scholarship, funneling large gifts toward need based aid; multicultural weekends and creating support infrastructure for poorer students from less privileged backgrounds. It definitely could’ve been in response to an anticipated methodlogy change.

126

@ucbalumnus - I should have clarified. Among the US News top 25 from most recent data, USC is third behind UCLA and UC Berkeley.

There are a lot of schools with more Pell Grant recipients, including all the remaining UC’s, than all three of the above schools. I was referring to the top 25 National Universities and its affect on the new US News top 25 or 30 schools.

127

USN&WR “rankings” are entirely meant to drive eyeballs to their content. The rankings, themselves, are meaningless. Your previously stated three criteria for your daughter are actually how every parent should approach this entire subject.

128

Syracuse ranked higher than Binghamton or SB?

Sure if you wanted to go into the sports broadcasting business or maybe Govt. Every kid last year from our HS that is at Bing or SB, have ivy stats (I’ve known most for 12 years). The few Syracuse kids have significantly lower grades but wealthier parents.

129

If that is what is important to you, you can take a look at WSJ/THE “Engagement” number.
<< Does the college effectively engage with its students? Most of the data in this area is gathered through the THE US Student Survey. The Engagement area represents 20 per cent of the overall ranking. Within this we look at: Student engagement (7%) ; Student recommendation (6%); Interaction with teachers and students (4%); Number of accredited programmes (3%) >>

See http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/2099271-comparing-wsj-the-and-us-news-college-rankings-methodologies.html

Here is the “Engagement” ranking for the WSJ/THE top 20 – http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/21697716/#Comment_21697716

As you can see, USC students are in general pretty happy (#6, tied with Brown). This metric is like Yelp.

USNWR rankings have zero student input.

130

@evergreen5 “And yet cost looms large, with BC eschewing merit in favor of need-based aid and presumably not having the same level of financial aid resources as the more highly-ranked privates above it.”

I agree cost looms large at BC, but not on the merit comment. They have a tiny tiny number (10?) Of scholarships per year (for ~2500 students in the freshman class). Negligible. Similar to the merit scholarships at Duke.

The reason cost looms large as that full pay families that have historical sent their kids to BC don’t think it’s worth 65K. Maybe if junior got into an Ivy, they might think it’s worth it, but it’s tough for BC.

131

@suzyQ7 That’s what I should have said, that the Gabelli scholarships are a tiny number, proportionally fewer than, say, the types of scholarships available at some higher-ranked privates (USC comes to mind).

132

Anyone else mystified by how/why Williams stays on top of the ranking system? (Ivy prof here, spouse is Ivy prof as well). Visited and took a tour and was utterly unimpressed. Not that it was terrible, but just nothing special. In fact, the LACs I have visited after a while all seemed to me to be remarkably similar, varying only by the setting (ugly/attractive buildings, walkability,Greek/no Greek, urban/rural/suburban). What’s so special about the Williams Kool-Aid? It reinforces for me how ridiculous the rankings (of all kinds are). I suspect they correlate most strongly with size of endowment and various stand-ins for “reputation”.

133

All the schools my D likes fell considerably in the rankings. Oh well!

134

@parent365 that would be interesting to see but I haven’t found anything yet.

135

How come Purdue is ranked above Georgia Tech for graduate engineering?

Makes no sense.

Purdue outranks GT in just 1 category “Agricultural Engineering” a degree GT and many other schools do not have.

US NEWS Engineering Grad Rankings

University (Number of Top10 Graduate Eng Major Rankings (13 possible))

  1. MIT (10)
  2. Stanford (9)
  3. Berkeley (10)
  4. Caltech (6)
  5. Michigan (10)
  6. Carnegie Mellon (5)
  7. Purdue (7)
  8. Georgia Tech (11) *** most top 10, missing Agricultural, Petroleum
  9. UIUC (8)
  10. USC (1) least top 10, Petroleum
  11. Texas (9)



<h1>Most Top 10 finishes for 13 Graduate Engineering Majors</h1>

<h1>University            Top10 Rankings    avg ignoring x   x=11 avg   best 7 rankings</h1>

1) Georgia Tech       4 x 2 2 7 4 5  5 1 7 5 9 x      51/11    4.6   5.6   23 
2) UCB                x x 4 2 1 2 1  1 3 3 3 5 x      25/10   2.5   4.5    13
3) MIT                1 x 4 1 7 1 1  x 7 1 1 2 x      26/10    2.6.  4.5   12
4) Michigan           5 x 9 x 7 6 7  3 2 9 5 1 x      54/10    5.4   6.8   29
5) Stanford           3 x 4 3 2 x 1  2 x 3 2 x 2      22/9     2.4   5      15
6) Texas              8 x x 6 2 7 9  6 x x 10 5 1     54/9     6      7.5    35
7) UIUC               8 5 x x 2 3 4  3 x 6 7 x x      38/8     4.8   7.2     30
8) Purdue             6 1 x 6 x 9 9  x 6 x 8 x x      46/7     6.8   8.6    46
9) Cornell            x 5 x x x 9 9  10 5 10 10 x x   58/7     8.2   9.5    58
10) Caltech           1 x x 2 x 7 5  x x 7 4 x x      26/6   4.3   7.9    x
11) Carnegie Mellon   x x x x 10 4 8  8 x x 10 x x    40/5    8      9.8    x

Ignoring unranked "x" majors

  1. Stanford 2.4 (9 majors avg)
  2. UCB 2.5 (10)
  3. MIT 2.6 (10)
  4. Caltech 4.3 (6)
  5. Georgia Tech 4.6 (11)
  6. UIUC 4.8 (8)
  7. Michigan 5.4 (10)
  8. Texas 6 (9)
  9. Purdue 6.8 (7)
  10. Carnegie Mellon 8 (5)
  11. Cornell 8.2 (7)

Using "11" for unranked majors (using 11 is very generous)

  1. UCB 4.5 (avg rank)
  2. MIT 4.5
  3. Stanford 5
  4. Georgia Tech 5.6
  5. Michigan 6.8
  6. UIUC 7.2
  7. Texas 7.5
  8. Caltech 7.9
  9. Purdue 8.6
  10. Cornell 9.5
  11. Carnegie Mellon 9.8

Dropping lowest scores to best 7 majors

  1. MIT 1.7
  2. UCB 1.8
  3. Stanford 2.1
  4. Georgia Tech 3.2
  5. Michigan 4.1
  6. UIUC 4.3
  7. Texas 5
  8. Purdue 6.6
  9. Cornell 8.3

Work…



Graduate Engineering Major Top 10 Rankings

<h1>University, Aero, Agri, BioMed, Chem, Civ, Comp, Elec, Enviro, Indust, Mater, Mech, Nuc, Petro</h1>

Caltech.                 1 x x 2 x 7 5  x x 7 4 x x    26/6      4.3<br>
MIT.                       1 x 4 1 7 1 1 x 7 1 1 2 x.   26/10    2.6
Stanford.               3 x 4 3 2 x 1  2 x 3 2 x 2.    22/9     2.4
Georgia Tech        4 x 2 2 7 4 5  5 1 7 5 9 x.   51/11    4.6<br>
Michigan.             5 x 9 x 7 6 7  3 2 9 5 1 x.     54/10  5.4
Purdue.                  6 1 x 6 x 9 9  x 6 x 8 x x.      46/7     6.8
TexasAM.              7 3 x x x x x   x x x x 3 2.       15/4
Princeton.              8 x x 9 x x 9   x x x 8 x x.        34/4
UIUC.                    8 5 x x 2 3 4  3 x 6 7 x x.       38/8    4.8
Texas.                    8 x x 6 2 7 9  6 x x 10 5 1.     54/9    6
VT.                          x x x x 7 x x   6 7 x x x x.        20/3
Iowa State.            x 2 x x x x x   x x x x x x.         2/1
Florida.                  x 4 x x x x x   x x x x x x.         4/1
Cornell.                  x 5 x x x 9 9  10 5 10 10 x x  58/7.   8.2
UC Davis.              x 7 x x x x x   x x x x x x.          7/1
NC State.              x 8 x x x x x   x x x x 4 x.         12/2
Penn state.             x 8 x x x x x   x 7 x x 9 6.         30/4
Nebraska              x 10 x x x x x x x x x x x.          10/1
JHU.                       x x 1 x x x x   x x x x x x.            1/1
UCSD.                   x x 2 x x x x   x x x x x x.            2/1
Duke.                     x x 4 x x x x   x x x x x x.            4/1
UCB.                      x x 4 2 1 2 1  1 3 3 3 5 x           25/10 2.5
Penn.                      x x 4 x x x x   x x x x x x.            4/1
Rice                        x x 9 x x x x   x x x x x x.            9/1
Washington.          x x 9 x x 9 x   x x x x x x.          18/2
Minnesota              x x x 5 x x x   x x x x x x.           5/1
Wisconsin              x x x 7 x x x    x 7 x x 5 x.         19/3
Delaware               x x x 9 x x x.   x x x x x x.           9/1
Carnegie Mellon  x x x x 10 4 8  8 x x 10 x x.        40/5
Yale.                       x x x x x x x x  9 x x x x x.           9/1
Northwestern.       x x x x x x x x  4 x 2 x x z.          6/2
UCSB.                    x x x x x x x x  x x 5 x x x.          5/1
Tennessee.             x x x x x x x x  x x x x 8 x.          8/1
Tulsa.                      x x x x x x x x  x x x x x 4.         4/1
CoMines.               x x x x x x x x. x x x x x 5.         5/1
Oklahoma.            x x x x x x x x  x x x x x 7.         7/1
USC.                      x x x x x x x x  x x x x x 8.         8/1
LSU.                       x x x x x x x x  x x x x x 9.         9/1
Texas Tech.           x x x x x x x x.  x x x x x 9.        9/1
136

I just told my son not to study anymore this week since we are pulling him from University of Michigan. Their number 1 public school ranking dropped to number 4. What am I supposed to do? I tell everyone that he goes to the number 1 public school. If I say he goes to the number 4 public school you know people will say “who’s in the top 3”?..forget that nonsense!

I think since they dropped I will ask the scholarship /financial aid /merit department if they plan on giving him more money since we wanted him at the number 1 public school. Sorta like bait and switch if you ask me.

Plus to make things worse engineering is now a 3 way tie (undergraduate) with Illinois AND Carnegie Mellon. What… next year there will probably be a 4 way tie!

I have to go now and see what Niche says!!!

137

@Knowsstuff haha sorry to ruin the joke but UM wasn’t ranked 1 for public.

138

“In fact, the LACs I have visited after a while all seemed to me to be remarkably similar”

For some, yes. But, I’d also argue there are many differences. Haverford, Washington and Lee, Middlebury, Wellesley, Colorado College, Reed are all LACs but very different from each other.

139

@10s4life maybe poster was referencing 2019 Niche ranking where UMich is #1 public. :wink:

140

“The change in USNWR ranking criteria to include Pell grant student measures was probably more beneficial to UCs than other public and private schools, due to their relatively high numbers of Pell grant students and small disparities between Pell grant student graduation rates and overall graduation rates.”

@ucbalumnus… Very true… UC Riverside’s jump up of 39 spaces is the nations greatest gain in US News & World report rankings. UC Riverside graduates more low-income (Pell Grant) students (at a 73% rate…24% higher than the national average) than any University in the United States.

Good link about it here… https://ucrtoday.ucr.edu/55173