<p>from the USMA discussion:</p>
<p>US News 2009 College Rankings
Early reports -
Both USMA and USNA are ranked as Liberal Arts Colleges - i.e. more than 50% of students earn a degree in the Arts & Sciences.
(USAFA is ranked as a regional university).</p>
<p>2009 - USMA = #14, USNA = #22
2008 - USMA = #22, USNA = #20</p>
<p>Looks like West Point is getting the respect it deserves.</p>
<p>First off, Let me apologize to all other posters for acknowledging Big Green's presence, but seriously I have to ask, what is the purpose of all this blatant baiting? I mean sure rivalries are fun, especially Army-Navy, but are we, or anyone else supposed to take your ignorant ramblings seriously? I'd laugh at your comments, only I can't tell if your joking... </p>
<p>Although I have to ask, are you a grad? (not a knock to anyone, just that I don't see how a Service Academy Grad wouldn't atleast show respect for their brother schools)</p>
<p>I have nothing but respect for the young men and women who've chosen to attend a Service Academy. But given the record of the Army football team the past decade or so it's hard not to tweak Navy when these rankings - which really mean nothing - pop up.</p>
<p>Yeah, sorry its been a long week. And I've gotta be in tomorrow at 0530 for a flight brief so I'm far from done... With that, I'm going to bed</p>
<p>Of course, the notion that either USMA or USNA is a "liberal arts" college is a joke. And USAFA as a "regional university???"</p>
<p>The truly sad thing is that some people DO believe these rankings and form decisions based on them.</p>
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<p>Still inappropriate. This is not a sports fan forum. No one associated with a SA should begrudge the success of a cadet or midshipmen able to withstand the academic rigors of a top twenty something institution and still play Division 1 football. I personally hope every year that Army comes into the game with a perfect season and heavily favored and Navy only pulls it out on the last play of the game.</p>
<p>I thought the Navy had a little more sense of humor and good-natured camaraderie. My mistake.</p>
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<p>Are you stirring things up or trying for a little humor? Your words and actions are conflicting. Why don't you tell us where you went to college that you find USNA so second rate and we can all have a good laugh? Or are you just undeservedly attempting to live vicariously through the accomplishments of your offspring? Pretty cheap, huh?</p>
<p>BIG GREEN:</p>
<p>Possibly Dartmouth??? Great School out in the middle of no where. Along the Apalachian Trail. Beautiful campus. Mid applied because Dartmouth had Hockey but chose USNA instead. No Womens Hockey at USNA. Bummer with the new Rink. Let's see some women's Ice Hockey at USNA.</p>
<p>"Are you stirring things up or trying for a little humor? Your words and actions are conflicting. Why don't you tell us where you went to college that you find USNA so second rate and we can all have a good laugh? Or are you just undeservedly attempting to live vicariously through the accomplishments of your offspring? Pretty cheap, huh?"
And he thought you didn't have a sense of humor- you certainly proved him wrong! G.A.L.</p>
<p>I didn't realize this Army-Navy rivalry was so heated.</p>
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<p>Any assumption on your part that I was attempting to be humorous is totally erroneous.</p>
<p>This is silly debating this silliness. :eek:</p>
<p>btw, gotta concur with 1985. The most silly notion is that these places are LACs. Of course the magazine can defend its position on all of this but looking at Reed, Grinnell, and St. John's in the same eye is like comparing Bach to Johnny Cash or Lynard Skynard. We can love 'em all, but they ain't the same tune.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Of course, the notion that either USMA or USNA is a "liberal arts" college is a joke. And USAFA as a "regional university???"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I suppose one would have to take the time to seek out the DEFINITIONS that were used in defining colleges and universities.</p>
<p>US News - by DEFINITION - calls a school that pumps out over 50% of it's degrees in Arts and Sciences and concentrate on undergraduates degrees a LAC.<br>
USAFA - they have a management major which is a business degree that is very popular - this prevents them from awarding over 50% of it's degrees in Arts and Sciences.
If you don't like it then tell the schools to dump the Arts and Science majors altogether.
History, Poli Sci, Foreign Lang, Chem, Physics - these are all majors in the Arts and Sciences.</p>
<p>WP - of course it's silly. No one likes rankings unless they are on top. :eek:</p>
<p>To help you all understand - from the US News website:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The national universities offer a full range of undergraduate majors, plus master's and Ph.D. programs, and emphasize faculty research. The liberal arts colleges focus almost exclusively on undergraduate education. They award at least 50 percent of their degrees in the arts and sciences. The universities-master's offer a broad scope of undergraduate degrees and some master's degree programs but few, if any, doctoral programs. The baccalaureate colleges focus on undergraduate education but grant fewer than 50 percent of their degrees in liberal arts disciplines. The baccalaureate colleges include institutions where at least 10 percent of the undergraduate degrees awarded are bachelor's degrees. The universities-master's and baccalaureate colleges categories are further subdivided by geographyNorth, South, Midwest, and West.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ok Rather than define from a major news and entertainment source why not take what is commonly the definition in higher education. A Liberal Arts degree is commonly a Bachelor of Arts degree in which a student studies a general knowledge curriculum with a few courses of specialty within a given major. these degrees are awarded at the likes of Grinnell, Pomona, Carleton, Swarthmore, Williams, Smith, Oblerin, Middlebury... etc. Schools typically without graduate programs or professional degrees. </p>
<p>A Humanities degree or now more commonly referred to as a social science degree is typically either a BA or a Bachelor of Science degree. A BS degree is typically awarded in the pure sciences and engineering, but is also very common in what we would refer to as humanities - languages, lit, history, poli sci, and social sciences sciences. Most Universities offer a BS in humanities. Most schools that award a BS will also have some professional degrees - those can be anything from Management to Engineering to nursing etc. </p>
<p>It would be very hard to classify any SA as Liberal Arts or a liberal Arts education. Many have humanities and social science programs - that still is quite different from a LAC. Given that the SA's have professional programs - Engineering - they do not fall into the typical definition of a LAC.</p>
<p>USNews- is really taking liberty in their definition.</p>
<p>Who really cares which school is where... You can graduate from the best (or what society perceives as the best college) and do nothing with it - so are you any better off? Then again you can graduate from a community college - do well, go to a middle of the road graduate program and earn your PhD. Just like the saying, after graduation everyone is an Ensign. It is what you do with that education and career choice that will eventually set you apart.</p>
<p>So True!!!!</p>
<p>Navy 22 - Army 14. Sounds like most of the football games recently. :)</p>
<p>Rankings, schmankings. All SA's are good schools, and if anyone chooses a school because of its 2009 USN&WR ranking or the Forbes ranking, I say let 'em. I wouldn't want them at my alma mater if they use judgment like that to make a decision.</p>
<p>It's like aiming and shooting at a target that has already passed, anyway. The fact that the SA's get publicity from these types of reports is the best thing we could hope for in promoting the institutions...we used to be ignored because we didn't fit the traditional university mold.</p>
<p>My two cents...</p>
<p>The notion of these being silly has nothing to do with the outcomes, altho we all like to think our fave is #1. But it's no less silly if USNA is #1 or #3000. </p>
<p>The silliness comes from how "quality" is measured. Pure and simple. There's only one valid measure of educational quality ... value added. How much does a series of events, activities, etc. contribute to changing an indidual and the collective of individuals. And how much do those changes coincide with the institution's purported mission.</p>
<p>And the problem is that this is so grossly complex to measure that even the experts, those who've spent lifetimes exploring these things ... Robert Pace, Alexander Astin, Ken Mortimer, Chickering, others ...have concluded it's difficulty and thus we're left to more pragmatic measurement of issues like time spent on task and self-reported, graduation (including the TYPE of students admitted, i.e. Ivies admit the best so they SHOULD ALL GRADUATE ... graduation, careers, incomes, outcomes becomes ludicrous. Same might be said for the service academies. They OUGHT to graduate the most.) </p>
<p>So it's these basic notions and looking at what US News, Forbes, ad nauseum are trying to do with this ... WHY? Because they know no matter how "silly" a whole bunch of us like to think it has some meaning, which of course in terms of real measurement and any and all specific students, it's useless. </p>
<p>But it sells lots of magazines. btw, did you ever wonder WHY it is that MAGAZINES, those bastions of intellect and truth, take the lead on such silliness? Duh ...</p>