US/UK(/Australia) Pathways to Medicine and High School Courses

Student Lounge International Students
1

A clearer version of this text wall was posted here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/us-uk-australia-pathways-to-medicine-and-high-school-courses.1176955/

Hey everyone,

The very first thing I want to do is to sincerely apologize for the text wall… But I would really appreciate it if you would read everything I wrote. With all due respect, I know that your time is important. But if you could, please take the time to read everything. If you don’t, I have a Tl;Dr section at the bottom of the post if you want to read that. Please answer whichever inquiry you can as that would help me a lot.

I am a Singaporean who has never studied in Singapore or a British curriculum before. My father is an expatriate who has moved myself and my family to Hong Kong, Shanghai, and we now reside in Bangkok. Throughout my years outside of my home country, I have gone to international schools which follow an American style of teaching but allow students to take the IB diploma. (I have also skipped a grade if that changes anything)

First
I want to be a doctor (as I’m sure everyone like me will say). I see myself as a doctor in the future. Or I would hope to see it. But because I am a Singaporean, I am also a foreign/international to schools in the US and UK. I have done a lot of research on the medical school system in the US and realize that it is difficult to get accepted as an international student and the chances are incredibly slim. Much of the information and tips I have researched online suggest international students to study and become qualified in their home country. For my case, Singapore. But my grades are already really bad so I pretty much have no hope anywhere.

I completely bombed my freshman year and finished with a 3.61 GPA (unweighted). I just completed my first semester of sophomore year and got a 3.77 GPA (unweighted). With these grades I feel very hopeless in making it into NUS Medical School in Singapore and any other medical school really.
(BTW about the fact that my GPA is all unweighted: I will be taking the IB diploma which means that I will not have any weighted subjects in my freshman and sophomore year)

So I was wondering if I would be able to make it into any medical school and if any of you out there can give me advice on this.

Second
I’m also slightly curious on the number of years it would take for me for residency/fellowship in the US and the UK. I know that you have to take 8 years of undergrad + med school till you get a MD. This is followed by residency/fellowship which lasts for about 3-7 years + 1-2 years. I haven’t done much research on the UK system yet but I know you work for 5 years to get an MBBS. So can someone explain the total years it would take in the UK to become a qualified doctor?

If possible, I would also like to know how the system in Australia works too.

Third
As mentioned in my first point, much of my research on medical programs in the US and UK have led to the conclusion of studying in one’s home country due to the costs. Not only do I fear that I will not be able to get accepted into any medical schools, I may not have the sufficient funds to pay for medical school. (This is mostly for going to the US as it is my main plan)

Are there any scholarships/financial aids that I can apply to outside of school or something? Or are there schools that give scholarships/financial aids?

Fourth (Just for US I think)
Another reason why it is difficult for international students to become qualified in the US that I’ve found out is the fact that residency chances are slim. Is it truly difficult for students that have been accepted into med school in the US to be accepted for residency as well?

Fifth
I was wondering about what courses I should take. My initial game plan to get into med school in the US was to do engineering + pre med. Maybe in mechanical engineering (been interested in aerospace engineering since young). Maybe computer science (only if I can’t do engineering)

My grades are not as high as they could be due to my humanities and english classes. As writing is definitely not my forte and has never been my forte since young, they drag my grade down with B+. My mathematics average of an A is also considered reasonably high compared to the rest of my classmates. My sciences are also quite strong with my Biology 1 course ending with an A and my Physics 2 course finishing with a B+.
(I got a B+ in physics only because it took me the entire semester to figure out how to write a good lab report. My first three lab reports of the semester were B-, B, and C+. But I wrote a very lengthy lab report at the end of the term which got an A. My physics exam was also an A-, higher than the class average by 5 marks out of 100. So I think I can probably do better in my next semester.)

Anyways, as mentioned above, I would like to major in something super mathy because I enjoy maths (but enjoy sciences even more). So for my science courses for my junior and senior year of high school, I initially decided to opt for physics and chemistry. (Because you can only take two unless you are super freaking smart [which I am not] and want to kill yourself with the IB.)

So all was well. Until I decided to look at UK medical schools. Because my entire family is Singaporean, my cousins are following a UK (A-Level) curriculum. I am the only person actually being exposed to an American style --> IB curriculum at this point. Students who take the A-Level examinations are allowed to take all 3 sciences. This is where another concern comes in. Because a general requirement of going into the medical field is Biology, I may not be able to apply to the UK medical schools. (Again, someone please confirm this for me)

Since I would like to take physics and chemistry, I will have no time to take biology. Will this affect my chances of getting into a UK/Australian med school? Or should I just completely give up on engineering and physics to take biology and chemistry instead? (I enjoy all the sciences equally.)

Sixth (Final Inquiry)
Lastly, as promised, my cousin from Singapore who doesn’t take medicine (she majored in chemistry) told me that in order to get into NUS in Singapore, I will have to do some form of volunteer work at a hospital before my undergrad/MBBS if I were to choose NUS or a British curriculum in general. Is this true?

To fulfill that requirement, if it is necessary to go to the UK or Australian medical schools with prior volunteer work at a hospital, can I just take a summer course in the US or the UK related to medicine? I also don’t know if I will have the time to be able to do all of these while I do the IB diploma, I also have no prior clinical experience.

Sincerely,
Chanze3

Tl;Dr

  1. Singaporean having trouble with grades in an international curriculum away from her home country.
  2. Want to go to US for med school as first choice but thinking about UK now so wondering about system there.
  3. Insufficient funds so any scholarships/financial aids?
  4. Is it hard to get accepted to residency in the US? Not sure about UK either.
  5. Want to be undergrad engineer in US curriculum so taking physics/chem. But if apply to UK I need bio. Can only take two. What courses should I do?
  6. Volunteer work prior to MBBS.
2

In the United States, you don’t go to medical schools immediately after high school. You have to finish undergraduate first, then apply to med schools. However, most med schools require the applicants to be at least green card holder, meaning that it is almost impossible for you to go to US med schools.

Even if you get into a med school that accept international students(which is, less than four per year), there are very few scholarships/financial aids. It is very common to go to med schools with debt, which I read around 240K+ by the time you graduate.

@MYOS1634 could you help this kid about how he could get in med school in UK?

3

Your situation is complicated.
However, don’t worry about your classes’level (they’ll be considered Pre-IB and if you apply to the US ask your counselor to specify this) and don’t worry about not having many sciences (UK universities are well aware of the IB vs. A-Level systems.)
First, in order to get into a UK medical school, you’ll need to get 36+ on your IB predicted, which is hard to do unless you’re strong across the board and exceptional in one or two subjects. Second, you do need to volunteer in clinics/hospitals, and/or work as an emergency medical technician (or equivalent). Many UK applicants take a “glide” year between A-Levels and medical school to acquire sufficient experience.
The US is different: you don’t need to acquire experience until you’re in college. You major in whatever you want - could be math, or engineering, take the premed core classes and rank in the top 10-20%, get clinical and research experience, then you apply to medical school. The hurdle is that, as an international student, your odds are complicated by the fact you’re unable to apply to most med schools and even if you can, affording them is out of reach for most.
Why do you want to be a doctor? Are you interested in health professions and, in that case, would be fine being a PA or nurse? Are you interested in medical research?

4

the good news : I understand that bio isn’t essential as one of your A levels, but chemistry is.

the bad news: there are almost no spots in UK med schools for internationals, and you would need top grades and an outstanding application.

5

Australia is your friend- go check out University of Melbourne.

6

The main reason why US medical schools seem hesitant to accept international applicants is money. If you have the funds available to put the cost of 4 years of medical school into an escrow account when you apply, many medical schools would be happy to consider you for admission.

Second, residency match rates. Non-US applicants seem to have a match rate around 50% (this figure combines foreign graduates of US medical schools and foreign graduates of foreign medical schools). Most foreign applicants seem to match into primary care specialties. For example, about 50% of internal medicine spots went to foreign applicants, but only 5% of ENT positions.

7

Two problems with the UK (excluding the work experience /volunteering already mentioned):-

  1. There is a quota of UK/EU students, in order to fill all vacancies in the UK national health service. This means there are very very few (often less than 10 per medical school ) places for international students. You would need to be an exceptional applicant to be admitted.
  2. Funding. I am not aware of any substantial financial aid for overseas medical students provided by UK sources. The UK model is overseas students subsidise the rest. I knew a few Singaporeans at Cambridge (none studying medicine ) and some of them had scholarships from their government. I don't know any further details other than they had to work as teachers for several years upon their return to Singapore.
8

i noticed you referred to me as a ‘he’. I am actually a female. Will my gender affect my chances of getting in to a US medical school in any way? Like make it even harder? :confused: I have a correction to my sophomore S1 gpa: 3.63. Since I transferred schools between my fresh and soph year the scale also changed. my 3.63 is on a 4.0 scale. I noticed that a few of my peers’ gpa dropped significantly from fresh to soph year. is this normal? and if I show an upward trend will i be able to get into a good college like UCB/UCLA? What can be my predicted gpa in college if my high school gpa ends up as a 3.6 UW average?

@paul2572

9

@MYOS1634

Wow… that seems so difficult >.<

anyways, to answer your question, I have a very personal reason to become a doctor. But I believe I’m not the only one in this situation. My father isn’t exactly the healthiest man I’ve met. He had hypertension at the age of 27 and required an adrenal gland surgery. If not, he would be on the brink of death at the time. At the age of about 35, (I was nearly 3/4 years old), he was diagnosed with diabetes. I remember how disappointed I was when I learned that I wouldn’t be able to feed him my birthday cake anymore during my 5th birthday.

when I was 10, my father’s father (my grandpa), who was also diagnosed with diabetes, (Heck, my entire family has diabetes and HBP >.< even my mom’s side!) suffered from stroke. during that time, my entire family was in despair. Especially my dad. My father’s diabetes got worse during that time but thanks to his consistent healthy lifestyle (enforced by my ‘tiger mom’, haha) he was able to get better.

my grandpa’s stroke was very important to me, as having only one grandfather alive since my birth, he was very close to me. I didn’t want to lose him too. (my other grandpa passed away from excess alcohol and diabetes/HBP). Thankfully, under good care, he was able to recover.

seeing how doctors treated my family members, (my mom also got a surgery for her nose and a bunch of cysts before but that’s a story for another time) I was inspired by the power of medicine. (please realize that i was like 10 years old at the time and was very dreamy)

I am also quite strong in sciences and LOVE SCIENCE+MATH (as mentioned in my text block). I would seriously consider a job related to STEM but being a doctor has been a long dream of mine… (I also had a deadly fever when I was just a newborn. My mom told me about how the doctor was able to help! tbh i’ve forgotten how haha)

I’m sure my reasons for being a doctor are much weaker than other people’s. But I honestly can’t see myself doing anything else in the future… :confused:

10

@collegemom3717

!!! what do you mean? how is Australia my friend…

11

@Conformist1688

so if I were to take IB physics and chemistry, I can still apply to UK medical schools? I heard that I can only apply to half since half the med schools there require bio…

12

@b@r!um

thanks for the info!

so there will be zippo med school financial support for internationals…

sighs

what about student loans? I’ve done a little bit of research around and stuff… the total cost is like 400,000USD >.< And I’ve heard that I need to show the colleges and do something like ‘pre-pay’ them or show them I have enough funds?

i’ve tried searching around a little for residency and am slightly confused. will I still have to pay a ‘residency tuition’ or is that already a job without needing to pay fees where I get salary? how much is residency salary for different specialists? do you know?

13

@cupcake

thx bro. damnnnn being a singaporean is so difficult >.<

cuz singaporean OK unis are tough, then US college/med school acceptances are tough, even the ones in the UK

cries a river

14

@MYOS1634

one more thing about medical research:
as mentioned in my text wall, i am interested in mechanical engineering/techy stuff. I’ve also been interested in tech stuff and my mom gets mad at me often for sitting in front of my computer all the time. I’ve been invited to school tech teams a couple of times but with my school sports commitments, it is difficult to find the time for that…

I used to be quite interested in prosthetics (more interested in prosthetics and artificial organs/limbs) and the development of medicine. I still kinda am interested in biomedical engineering. But since it doesn’t provide a very good fallback job, I want to go for mechanical engineering.

And since this is like my second choice in life after my dying wish of becoming a doctor, I will only consider it after trying to get into med school. (i don’t want to completely fail but given the current circumstances… I don’t think I’ll make it)

Another reason why I don’t really fancy getting another phd is the extra number of years I would have to study. I am an only child, I need to support my parents (asian culture) and because my father is diabetic and pretty much by the exact time I complete med school + 3 years of residency (if I’m able to get a smooth education which I really doubt), he will need to retire. His diabetic meds cost a crap ton of money and he may not be able to support the numerous years of studying I will require after my MD. So… yeah…

15

yes, you can apply to any med schools which do not insist on bio. You can only apply to a maximum of five anyway. However, as others have pointed out, there are very very few spots for international students in UK medical schools, so you would really need to be an exceptional applicant.

16

You can try to be a Physician’s Assistant first, make money, save up/send to your father, and then go to medical school.
If you’re interested in research there’s a path called MD/PHD. It’s longer and it’s very selective -you need to be active in research as an undergrad and have excellent grades - but your costs are covered.

17

If you do have some money for your education, there are some private medical schools in Eastern Europe that teach medicine in English. They are sometimes used as back-up options by students from Western Europe who couldn’t get a medical spot in their own country. Those would typically charge tuition on the order of $10,000 to $20,000 per year.

HOWEVER, and this is important to keep in mind, getting a residency spot after medical school in Eastern Europe is a non-trivial endeavor. You’ll have to plan ahead to make that happen. (For example, you need to pick a medical school that’s properly accredited in the country you wish to practice afterwards, preferably with an exchange agreement with a medical school in that country.)

18

Oh and regarding student loans for medical school in the US: you won’t be getting a student loan from an American source, because American institutions would have no confidence that you would repay it. (What would prevent you from moving back to Asia and defaulting on your loans?)

You may be able to secure funding in your home country (e.g. as a mortgage on your family’s home) but I think it’s generally unwise to spend money you don’t have on an American medical education. There’s too many things that could go wrong.

19

@conformist1688 - so I can only apply to a max of five in the UK, and a couple in the US and Australia? which would you suggest?

@MYOS1634 - yes I’ve looked a little bit around the MD/PhD path. But it really is a long way… :confused: I don’t really know but I think that if I do go to college in the US and am able to improve my grades (yikes!), I would try working as a pharmacy technician or get a part time job somehow related to the medical field to save a little if I am able to as an international. (<— this is for undergrad first)

@b@r!um - i see… i’ll try to look around in singapore and stuff…

20

The UK application form is at

www.ucas.com

and it only allows a maximum of 5 choices.

Do look into funding sources from your own government. I know such funding used to exist. Good luck with your application.