<p>Here’s the list of the 50 “Hidden Ivies” [Hidden</a> Ivies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“The Hidden Ivies - Wikipedia”>The Hidden Ivies - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>Of course, it’s quite the stretch to say that places like Stanford, Rice, and Northwestern are less “visible” than places like Dartmouth and Brown.</p>
<p>I would pick MIT, UChicago or Stanford over Cornell, Brown, Dartmouth or non-Wharton Penn anyday.</p>
<p>I know in the case of the original selection of the public ivies the list was based on academic rigor, “visual appearance, age, and school traditions as well as certain other Ivy League characteristics”</p>
<p>It’s kind of funny that in a list which gives 10 Ivy alternatives, 6 of them happen to be LACs even though only one of the Ives is arguably a LAC.</p>
<p>This must be a joke, Stanford and MIT are spare tires for Ivy! That is absurd.</p>
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<p>At their core, all the Ivies are LACs, they’re just overgrown ones. Although they are now universities, they are substantially different from the land-grant colleges that became the state flagships.</p>
<p>Also, in some quarters, Stanford and MIT are still regarded as second-tier. They are not schools that a gentleman would attend - too much getting your hands dirty. Fine for immigrants and farm boys, not for people of breeding and refinement. (Yes, that attitude is still out there, and not as uncommon as you would think.)</p>
<p>“Although they are now universities, they are substantially different from the land-grant colleges that became the state flagships.”</p>
<p>None of these universities; Berkeley, W&M, UVA, UNC, and Mich were or ever have been “land-grant colleges.” Cornell, an Ivy, comes from that backround…</p>
<p>^^I assume you mean because they were established before the passage of the Morrill Act (1865). However, I’d be surprised if some of them did not serve for a time as their state’s agricultural experiment station.</p>
<p>My experience through my son fits this topic pretty well.</p>
<p>My S had Ivy numbers and academic/extra curricular background, applied to many of these types schools as “alternatives” like U of C, and W&M. He was accepted at Columbia ( which I hated when visiting but he liked - both if us for the same reason because of the no campus city) M&M, Waitlisted at Princeton, Penn and Harvard, Denied at U of C.</p>
<p>When he applied to W&M I was surprised, we did not visit and I was only aware of the school because we vacationed once in Williamsburg.</p>
<p>I asked why he applied there and he said after looking at their website and reading materials they sent he said it sounded most like the Ivy style of education. His list, which I thought was well thought out:</p>
<p>You apply to the College and not a Department/school, first 2 years is Liberal arts focused.
Professors conduct research and publish on a variety of topics like the Ivys ( more so than small LAC) He did not like the Small LA schools because research was not a focus. ( wants a PhD)
His favorite was Princeton and he felt the focus in undergad education was similar ( as well as size).
Large amount of students go on to Grad/Professional schools ( 65% at W&M)
Well connected faculty through research collaborations ( or Faculty training) to Top Grad Programs</p>
<p>I suggest this is a list of attributes to find Ivy Alternatives regarding lessor known programs.</p>
<p>Virginia Tech is Virginia’s “land grant college”, not UVa or William & Mary.</p>
<p>" He did not like the Small LA schools because research was not a focus. ( wants a PhD)"</p>
<p>Seems like he didn’t do his research fully. LACs produce some of the largest numbers of PhDs per capita.</p>
<p>Look at this table of top 50 STEM PhD producers: [nsf.gov</a> - NCSES Baccalaureate Origins of S&E Doctorate Recipients - US National Science Foundation (NSF)](<a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/]nsf.gov”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/)</p>
<p>Small schools like Swarthmore send graduates to graduate and professional programs in high rates:</p>
<p>“Upon graduation, over 90% of Swarthmore grads plan to attend graduate or professional school within five years.”
“On average, 85% of Pomona graduates continue their studies graduate or professional school within 10 years.”</p>
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<p>Funny, an older Yale UG Wharton MBA relative advises my daughter not to “treat college as vocational school” and under that disparaging banner is any type of undergrad engineering or business.</p>
<p>He thinks you go to college to learn to think critically, to learn to write well, then you go to grad school for whatever career those four years lead you to.</p>
<p>“under that disparaging banner is any type of undergrad engineering” </p>
<p>Well, that’s a pretty shortsighted attitude for someone so seemingly well educated. Wonder how this guy thinks the world would be without engineers, most of whom would have an undergraduate engineering degree. Engineers certainly use critical thinking skills in their profession and engineers and their skills and innovations certainly have added to his life.</p>
<p>@ nostalgic…</p>
<p>Regarding research, he wanted to do research as an undergrad, many of these smaller schools did not have enough things going on of offer enough opportunities to peek his interest… We visited Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, Haverford </p>
<p>On your list you can see W&M is considered the ONLY school that is “research-high” institution, similar to the Ivys ( were research is very high) but not solely research focused and not a Baccalaureate only focus. Believe me this kid did his research.</p>
<p>As a research institution, grants support research and work he was involved in and cited on was published in a National Journal after his Freshman summer research fellowship ( paid on a grant). Very few such opportunities exist at the Smaller LACs ( of course you can always do a research project like helping a faculty write a book that the school might support, but taking a funded research position is quite a bit better ( and very prominent at the Ivy leagues, not smaller LACs).</p>
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<p>You misunderstand - I’m sure he quite values engineers, but he believes in hiring them, not being one. Being one is beneath him and he would never allow his children or anyone whom he advises to become one, or marry one. To him, going to school to become an engineer is one step above going to trade school to become an auto mechanic.</p>
<p>MrMom62, I did not misunderstand. I TOTALLY understand that some people think that way. Doesn’t mean I can’ t think that’s stupid. And a lot of the people that have that attitude probably couldn’t handle undergraduate engineering anyway! :)</p>
<p>Ha! He definitely values engineers, he just feels that the undergrad years should not be for specific career training, as meaningful, important and valuable as that career may be.</p>
<p>I brought up engineering, actually, his statement was in response to a question about studying business as an undergrad.</p>
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<p>I’m guessing he never contributed to NPR because he liked Car Talk. ;)</p>
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<p>Seems that Yale didn’t really help him with this. :D</p>
<p>“Seems like Yale really didn’t help him with this.” Funny, I was thinking the same thing.</p>
<p>UVa offered engineering as early as 1836.</p>
<p>Harvard began offering formal education in science and engineering in 1847. An observer in the 1850’s (under the history heading in Wikipedia) noted even then that engineering is a profession, not a trade and that it was an “absurd distinction” to view only law, medicine ,and theology as professions (as was common in the mid 1800’s). [Harvard</a> School of Engineering and Applied Sciences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_School_of_Engineering_and_Applied_Sciences]Harvard”>http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_School_of_Engineering_and_Applied_Sciences)</p>
<p>Yale is trying to actually step up its’ offerings in engineering, science, and computer science . My husband was accepted to Yale in the 70’s but went to Carnegie Mellon instead, mostly because Yale could not hold a candle to CMU at the time in terms of engineering.</p>
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<p>You nailed that one. I actually try to advise kids to look at who your competition is in various fields, and realize that while you may be a middle-ranked engineer, you can actually run circles around most people in other fields, like this guy, so consider going there instead.</p>