<p>
[quote]
Also, one bit of good advice given to me back in the day was to never agree to a confidential reommendation. An honest and candid writer of a recommendation will share a copy of it with the candidate. If the writer says no, well then you know that it's best to look to someone else for your recommendation.
[/quote]
I certainly understand why that makes sense from the student's viewpoint. To me, however, it's far from clear how this is great advice if an applicant wants schools to value recommendations ... I would think most schools value confidential evaluations more than "open" ones (and that is a guess on my part).</p>
<p>The funny thing is - one of the teachers my son sought out for a recommendation was the only one who ever gave him a C - in a class he didn't like, outside of his areas of interest. I'm not actually sure why he chose her. He never would have asked his coach (which is a good thing because his coach's verbal skills are, well, a bit sub-par...)</p>
<p>I think D1 had a counselor recommendation- two teacher recommendations and one outside non relative recommendation( work/service related)
that seems pretty standard at least for the kids at D2 high school</p>
<p>Daughter applied to ten schools and nine of them requested recommendations. Some wanted recs from teachers of specific subjects (English, Math, Foreign Language), others wanted recs from private instrumental teachers and non-related professional musicians (mostly the conservatories), others left it up to her who wrote the recs. Six of the nine also wanted GC recs. All told, she had to get letters from about six different people.</p>
<p>She provided a brag sheet, a resume and a pre-addressed stamped envelope to each of them by the very beginning of her senior year. A couple who we suspected would be very busy got the package earlier in the summer before her senior year. In no case did we ask to see the letter before it was sent to the school. We carefully chose who would write most of the letters then trusted them implicitly. We could not choose the GC, but we made sure he had all the information he needed and we came to realize that we were fortunate to be assigned a really good one.</p>
<p>i know a few schools here in bangladesh which ask students to write their own recommendations, simply because they're totally understaffed and over-enrolled; then the school gets the vp (we don't have GCs here) to sign and mails it in a sealed envelope from the school. it undermines the whole process terribly, and it's infuriating for the rest of us who actually have to earn good recs...but when the teachers have no scruples, how can you blame the students for wanting to make themselves sound good? however, a lot of students from these schools get admitted to top notch colleges/unis...what does that say about the impact of recs and the admission process of american colleges as a whole?</p>
<p>i guess either teacher/GC recs aren't given that much importance (or too much), or that a good student will get admitted regardless of who writes his/her rec</p>
<p>One bit of insight. If you ask a teacher and they say that they have too many recs. to write and cant fit you in, run away immediatly. Don't beg the teacher, if he or she really likes you and can write you a good rec, the teacher will find the time.</p>
<p>In our large high school, the GC does meet with the student prior to any evaluation/reccomendation to a college, but I think that in most cases the heart of what they add to the file is an assessment of the course load the student has taken. In so many cases, taking Orchestra, for example, may limit your access to certain honors or AP classes, just due to the way classes work out. A GC may be able to mention that the student was prevented from taking certain classes, though they did try to make it work, in the end they had to choose between this and that. This info probably would not appear in any other part of the application.</p>
<p>I am a HS teacher, and I usually don't mind writing recs... usually. When it's the right kid, it's an easy job and I'm excited to show the student what I wrote before I turn it in to guidance. However, right now I'm pulling my hair out over this one. I had a student last year who got straight Cs. She's of below-average intelligence (community college material at best), and to top it off she was very quiet in class so I know almost nothing about her personally. Just about the only thing I can say about her is that she's a sweet kid, and I guess she sort of tried hard (maybe). How can I turn that into a whole letter? Gaaaahh!! </p>
<p>I think from now on I'm going to ask the kids who request a rec to write up a few things they'd like my rec to say about them, and I'll go from there. It might jog my memory and give them a chance to reflect on themselves a little.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some hesitation and requesting the student to ask another teacher who might know them better might send a message to the marginal students.
[/quote]
I'm not sure what message that would be. Even marginal students who know their limitations and are applying to marginal schools will need to get letters from someone. Science Teacher's student may not have another teacher she can ask who knows her better. It is also possible that this student has to have a letter from a math/science teacher even though she is marginal in those subjects, but has humanities teachers lining up to rave about her.</p>
<p>I have written letters for a few students who were marginal in my activity or who I really didn't know very well. I hesitated, but after they convinced me that they really didn't have anyone better to ask, I just did the best I could. A list of talking points from the kid helps a lot.</p>
<p>dxu33 - In our school district, and many others I've heard about, it is common to write a letter on your child's behalf in order to include anecdotes and examples of his/her abilities and characteristics. The student is likewise supposed to submit such a letter. The counselor does not let the kid or the parent tell him/her what to write as much as it gives the counselor, who may have hundreds of other students to remember, a chance to make the letter much more personalized. That being said, I have always thought that the parents who are talented writers and put tons of effort into a letter like that are giving their kid an advantage. The real question is how common it is for counselors or teachers to lift full portions of these letters. I can see how even paraphrasing from an incredible letter would be problematic and lead to an advantage for those students over others.</p>
<p>I agree with Texas137 in that even "C" students need letters of recommendation (LOR). When you think about it, she probably needs you more than the ace student who has lots of other things going for her (gpa, SATs, stellar ECs, etc - such that LORs may play a lesser role in the final admission decision).</p>
<p>The difficult part is trying to write a LOR for a "C" student who is clearly applying to too many reach schools above their ability. You'd probably be doing the student a favor in discussing that issue with her, even if you feel like deflecting that difficult conversation to the school GC. Default option is not necessarily just a community college. Outside the top hundred competitive colleges, there are many schools that welcome the financially-able "solid-C" applicant who will contribute to the school community in other important non-academic ways.</p>
<p>You mention she is below-average intelligence. It may be easier writing a LOR for the earnest and mostly conscientious student doing a steady workmanlike (but unspectacular job) than it is to drum up some faux enthusiasm for the clearly more-gifted student who's been slacking through high school. IMO it's the latter student that you may feel more justified in suggesting another teacher that "knows you better".</p>
<p>I don't think science teacher was asking the student to write the recommendation. She was asking for a few bullet items to help jog his/her memory so that a recommendation can be written.</p>
<p>One bit of advice my children have received is to write a resume with ECs and accomplishments. Provide it to the recommenders after they accept the request. I have never heard anyone say that this was inappropriate and is quite similar to what science teacher is requesting.</p>
<p>GC recommendations are essentially useless- we have a specific "senior counselor" at my high school, so when I was preparing my ED application in September, I got a recommendation from a woman who had known me for about a month. That's really useful...</p>
<p>I do think that teacher recs can be useful in some situations- they can introduce information that you really can't squeeze in anywhere else, like interpersonal skills or attitude. These are things that can really affect how you will fit in or perform at a college, and they need a place on the application. Nobody wants a student with 1600 SAT's and perfect grades, but who is cruel, sadistic, dishonest, or apathetic.</p>
<p>Personally, I would never "torpedo" a student. But I also would not limit the # of recs I give out, because all students are in a "dependent" role with regard to that. I tend to think of it this way: Most students will approach a teacher that they sense must see/understand positive academic & maybe even personal qualities. Perhaps that "sense" is something that the student cannot really articulate (although I like Maize & Blue's "interviewing" of the student; that's nice). And I also agree with the concept that a strong rec needn't provide a portrait of perfection. It seems to me, in an admissions pool of similar & even identically-looking students, a well-defined portrait, "warts 'n all," may help an individual stand out, or be fleshed out as something more than just a high-level producer among the thousands of similar producers.</p>
<p>I also don't necessarily think that it's problematic to have to ask for the "opposite"-subject area rec. Strong students are distinguished by their application to subjects that are not "natural" to them. My younger D received a glowing, unsolicited progress report in fall semester from a teacher in her worst subject. How I wish this were my D's senior yr. It was a "rec" to die for, & obviously would have been a teacher to ask. She stressed my D's habits as a student, the energy with which she approaches the subject, etc.</p>