USMMA path to USCG

<p>My son has received his appointment to USMMA & he's ecstatic! So am I! He is however still waiting to hear from USCGA. He is leaning strongly toward a career in the Coast Guard but hasn't ruled out NOAA and is still reading into civilian jobs like Military Sealift Command.</p>

<p>Now, I know if he wants Coast Guard & he gets accepted at USCGA - that's where he should go. But since he's not completely convinced yet, he's thinking he should accept his appointment to KP regardless of whether or not he gets into CGA. It's ultimately his decision but I'm trying to provide whatever advice I can - so finally, , , here's my question;</p>

<p>If he goes to KP, graduates and gets commissioned as an Ensign in the CG, what would typically be his first assignment (billet)? I don't want to burst his emotional bubble but I'm afraid if he's not coming out of CGA he'll be relegated to an icebreaker or bouy tender - or worse yet - he'll be plunked into a landlocked staff position. Of course, everything is dependent on the CG's needs at the time - but histroically what are the first billet assignments for KP'ers? The obvious follow-up is - if he doesn't get what he considers a desirable first billet, what chance does he have of getting what he really wants as a second or third billet?</p>

<p>Thanks for any insight you can give us.</p>

<p>My understanding is the USCG is very accommodating regarding assignments of USMMA grads as part of their recruiting process.</p>

<p>If you want to go into the USCG, you should definitely pursue USCGA as your first choice of schools. To be honest, I even have a tough time recommending KP to someone who wants to go into the maritime industry, let alone active duty. I say this because the quality of the education, as well as the students has plummeted in over the last 4 years. </p>

<p>I have no idea what is going on in the admissions office, but there is no doubt in my mind that the “bar” has definitely been lowered. When I took certain classes (Terrestrial, Celestial, Meteorology, Tanker Ops) people did not fail. Granted, some people did poorly, but it is no where near I have seen in the classes of 2010-2013. It is honestly pathetic. It seems the admissions office is concerned with recruiting more athletes, and fairly dumb ones for that matter. I hate to break it to you, but its a division III school. To say you were “recruited” there is a joke. Besides, if you came to KP to play sports, that’s a whole other issue that I’m not getting into right now. </p>

<p>Its also obvious that the whole infrastructure of the school is falling apart. I know KP has been budgeted a lot more money, and that there are plans to make it the premiere maritime school in the world, but the state of a lot of the classrooms, facilities and waterfront are embarrassing. The food is terrible, and there are not nearly enough facilities for recreation and what not on campus. </p>

<p>Lastly, the administration has really suffered over the last few years. This is due to a variety of things. Its obvious that KP is amidst some sort of identity crisis. It is hard to justify keeping KP around when there are 6 other maritime academies, so KP has decided to offer a commissioning route into any branch of the armed forces. This is great, but in reality KP has to focus on one or the other, because it can’t really do both. Another problem with the administration is the fact that they are so easily pressured by parents concerns. For example, IT has been done away since some ■■■■■’s parents called and complained that he can’t get enough rest. I know its a tough pill to swallow for some, BUT THIS IS A FREAKING SERVICE ACADEMY. These kids are going to be officers, and if the administration keeps treating them like a bunch of little girls, it is going to reflect in their careers. I think this should be an serious cause for concern as more and more graduates are going active duty. </p>

<p>I know there are parents on here who will tell you that KP is the best thing since sliced bread, but the reality is that it is not. Yeah, you have options, but besides a mediocre maritime program, there are better ways to pursue them. Until KP gets its act together, stay away. If you want to go active duty, go the branch’s respective service academy.</p>

<p>USMMA2009- While KP certainly has its issues (and some of us are trying hard to fix them,) and you are entitled to your opinion- I’ll just ask this- if this is your opinion of the classes after you “Granted, some people did poorly, but it is no where near I have seen in the classes of 2010-2013. It is honestly pathetic.” have you thought about what the opinion of classes before you was about your class, and what they said about you?..the same thing, and it has been that way for 67 years.</p>

<p>Not only is that my view, it is the same view as the majority of my classmates as well as many of the professors. For example, while taking an advanced tankers course, the professor asked me one day after class if I could tutor some of his students. He said that he has people failing all over the place, and he had never seen it before. Its not a hard class by any means, and the teacher was pretty embarrassed that people were having a tough time with the class. I’m convinced that the problem is not with the professor or the way he teaches (he has been teaching this course for 15+ years with no issues before, and he wrote the book) but more so with the quality of the students admitted as well as the administration. It seems to me that over the course of the last 4 years or so, there has been a stronger push to “recruit” more athletes to KP rather than students with strong academic backgrounds. A lot of these students have no idea what they are getting themselves into, and end up dragging down the rest of the class. On top of that, the administration has such a lax academic policy that many are allowed to retake a course or they are just given an academic setback. While I can’t speak for my all my classmates, there are definitely a group of people that have lost a lot of pride about KP. I used to think that graduating from KP (and on time, for that matter) was a pretty respectable thing to do, but after seeing many of my current classmates and current midshipmen barely scrape by and weasel there way through the system, it has simply become a joke to me. I think KP really needs to take a hard look at its policies as well as its administration, and start bringing in students of a higher caliber.</p>

<p>i guess the recognition day events which include push-ups could be considered hazing also, in my view the plebes should just be sat down and said they are recognized because anything that needs physical effort on their part seems to be hazing</p>

<p>Based on the postings by usmma 2009, it is unclear whether he is still at the academy. If he is, this can only be because USMMA was kind enough to give this person a second chance even though he couldn’t handle the workload. Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t be throwing stones at others! Guess which Academy graduates received the best USCG assignments in 2009–the top USMMA 2009 grads who joined the Coast Guard!</p>

<p>ttownduo, KP is a great way to a Coast Guard career. Several members of this year’s graduating class will be commissioned in the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard has assigned a full time CG officer to KP. He is a fountain of information. Part of your decision-making process should be talking with him not only about the various CG career paths available from KP, but about a Coast Guard career in general.</p>

<p>USMMA2009: As Deepse notes, you are clearly entitled to your opinions and to voice them. I would point out that as you have indicated all your statements are your opinions and backed at most by what staticians and researchers would refer to as anaecdotal. </p>

<p>In other words do you have any data what so ever to back your statements. I’ll take the liberty of answering that - most probably not. First off, my understanding is that the data for the entering Classes of 2012 and 2013 reflects HIGHER academic standards than recent past, all be it, only slightly. That data being average graduating class standing and standardized test scores. Further, over the past thtree years there has been a shift again minor where the largest number of appointments by state has shifted where as New York used to be number 1 for the Classes of 2012 and 2013 the largest number of appointments were given to entering Plebe Candidates from Maryland and Virginia. In any case the entering students from the top five state sources are all from states where the secondary education systems and quality of graduates are regarded as very and and that has been so for as along as I can remember - which is now 27+ years. I would sure like to see the data but for numerous good reasons the Academy Admissions Staff usually doesn’t go out of their way to issue it and certainly doesn’t do so before the data has been fully vetted and verified.</p>

<p>You make some interesting statements that I as a graduate approaching my 30th reunion just don’t share or agree with based on my own anecdotal observations. My disagreements with you are:</p>

<p>1) “It seems to me that over the course of the last 4 years or so, there has been a stronger push to “recruit” more athletes to KP rather than students with strong academic backgrounds. A lot of these students have no idea what they are getting themselves into, and end up dragging down the rest of the class.”</p>

<p>Your characterization is wrong headed. Good leaders are well rounded. For example, the Validictorian of my graduating class was a starting pitcher and four year letterman on the Academy baseball team. One of my classmates who was a co-captain of the soccer team was a “dualie” - took 23+ credit hours every 10+ weeks, graduated with honors with BOTH Deck and Engine degrees and liscences and went on to a very successul career as a key leader at what is today a $500+M engineering firm - he was one of the original ~25 employees and remains on the Board of Directors today. I could go on but suffice it to say these men and women were all the definition of scholar athletes in the truest sense of the word then and are even better leaders because of their well rounded perspectives on life today. They most certainly didn’t drag down our class and I suspect the athletes in each of the current class don’t drag it down either Academically or Regimentally but rather are the real leaders many if not most of the members of the Regiment of Midshipmen look to and follow.</p>

<p>2) The idea that more failouts and/or setbacks is a reflection of lower standards is actually counter-intuitive. The raising of standards would, could and likely does increase the number of midshipmen failing out. Further I assure you if you graduated in the Class of 2009 and did so in four years (e.g. entered KP in July 2005) your graduating Class and the ones 4 years on either side of it had far, far more setbacks in it and entering students who were setback then those of us who gradutated in the 1977 - 1987 era, and we indeed as Deepsea alludes felt and often feel the rigor of the program needs to be returned. It was not uncommon, at all for our classes to have a washout rate of 33% between the day we reported for Indoctrination and Graduation day. My Class 1982 had some very high entering test scores, etc. and we had a better than average graduation rate - we had ~310 report and 254 graduates, of the 254 graduates less than 10 were setbacks from the entering Class of 1981, further back in those days multiple year setbacks were basically unknown, for any reason. Oh and another “back in the day” we never had a Midshipman Regimental Officer of any position who was a setback, can you say the same about 2009? My point is I do not believe the number of setbacks has neither decreased or increased on average between the Classes of 2005 and today. I do think it increased and the policy was that the view setbacks were a smart thing from a return on investment perspective and the number of setbacks offered increased slowly between 1998/1999 and ~2005/2006, but my understanding this is getting looked at again in view of current data.</p>

<p>3) Lag courses or the ability to “retake” a course has to my knowledge been a standard practice and a smart thing for the Government and the Academy to do since before I attended classes there in 1978 - 1982. Further while I never had to take a lag class or retake any courses, I think they are a good thing especially for fourth courses and for third class engineering course. That’s when you as a young person are figuring it all out and a “second chance” where you have to take an even higher than normal courseload during a trimester doesn’t seem like lowering standards or risking the Academy will graduate slackers in any way.</p>

<p>4) If you don’t have much pride about having graduated from KP, I truly feel sorry for you, but I have to be me and ask… What did this feeling just happen overnight the day after you graduated? I doubt it. If it grew over time and goes back to before you started second class year why didn’t you just leave and go somewhere else? Of course you can always ask for your money back, I mean why shouldn’t you feel disappointed and cheated, you only got a solid four year degree easily worth over $150,000 - by ANY MEASURE - for an overall cost of less than $20,000 “all in.”</p>

<p>4) I don’t like to catagorize “Classes” because it’s silly. Every KP graduate is different and even in “bad Classes” there are great people and in fact there really aren’t “bad Classes” - there are people who take a lot longer to mature and understand what their Kings Point experience has given them, I’ll just put you in that group and hope in a sort while something will happen that shows you just how good and valuable education you got and how good so many members of the Classes following you are.</p>

<p>shinksha,
You clearly did not read any of my posts. Yes I did make it through KP. And no, I did it without any second chances. The 4 years there were anything but tough. I managed to get through my 4 years with no failed classes, no sits at the “long table”, and served less than 2 weeks of restriction while graduating with honors. The workload was not that challenging; in fact, I willingly overloaded my schedule for the last 5 trimesters to take professional classes such as ECDIS, Fast Rescue Boat, LNG PIC, and others. I graduated with several very competitive job offers. I’m not trying to sound cocky; I was a deckie (not that tough of a major at KP) and I actually enjoyed what I studied. </p>

<p>jasperdog,
You are absolutely correct. I have no data to support any of my claims. These are simply my views and opinions from other people I’ve spoken with. I agree with you that having athletics is a good thing, and results in a well rounded leader. However, this is a D III school, and athletics are obviously not its primary focus. There are a lot of people, whom when asked why they are at KP, respond saying “I was recruited for…”. For one, I think its silly that someone would sacrifice a “traditional” college experience to come to KP to play a sport, especially considering the commitment we have to the government. It appears to me (no data, all anecdotal) that a lot of recruited athletes have been duped into coming to KP because they are told they will have a job that pays 100k+ a year when they graduate. I have heard this from quite a few people. Clearly, they are coming here for the wrong reasons. </p>

<p>I also don’t feel that our higher setback rate had anything to do with the standard being raised. If anything, I feel the standard had been lowered. I don’t think that all the people set back back and who had failed out in 2009 were all for failing classes. I mean, yeah, we had the guys who failed calc and physics plebe year, but it seemed like the vast majority were setback to due disciplinary issues and failing sea projects. You mentioned that “and we indeed as Deepsea alludes felt and often feel the rigor of the program needs to be returned” and I honestly couldn’t agree more with you. I think that is basically what my gripe has been all about. I really feel the quality of the program was a lot better in the day you went to KP than it is now. Besides the fact that the administration has gotten so lax with enforcing policies, or playing favorites (“Cdr” ragin…) that people can get away, or talk their way out of a lot of things. I think for one, the whole system and administration needs to be overhauled. Academic, regimental and other policies need to be actually enforced. For example, there is a girl in 2010 (was setback from 2009) who has yet to pass a single PFA, which is in direct violation of the naval science policy. Its things like that which are embarrassing. </p>

<p>I would like to retract my original statement that graduating KP was a joke (even though at times I feel it was), and I am actually proud to have graduated. I wouldn’t trade the benefits, job placement, alumni network and experiences for any other college. However, I strongly feel that KP needs a lot of work to return to its former prestige.</p>

<p>As a proud father of a member of the Class of 2013 who was “Recruited” to play football I would like to respond to USMMA2009 comment: </p>

<p>“I think its silly that someone would sacrifice a “traditional” college experience to come to KP to play a sport, especially considering the commitment we have to the government”. </p>

<p>My son wanted a school that could do three things that were important for him:

  1. A chance to serve his country.
  2. Gain a top-notch education.
  3. Play football.
    After visiting KP on football recruitment visit - he realized he had found the school that would give him all 3. He was in the top 10% (As I believe all KP plebes are) of his class, and made the county “All Star” team as a football player. He had many opportunities (Including DI and DII) - but choose Kings Point, a choice that was anything but “Silly”.</p>

<p>…And to ttownduo:
If your son gains the appointment to the USMMA he will find success upon graduation - a truly amazing array of opportunities. Just check some of the entries written by past grads such as Jasperdog (I particularly like the thread inquiring about being a pilot after graduating from KP. Go to a school all about big boats and then go fly airplanes - I love it!)</p>

<p>After reading the messages above, Oliver feels like he just survived a knife fight in a phone booth! Stop the self loathing!</p>

<p>h20constable, same experience here, but Class of 2011. (We’re almost through!) Three years championship Texas high school football varsity starter, my son was recruited for many months before he decided to go with USMMA. The sports experience–and in particular, Coach Toop’s mentorship, leadership, and realistic approach to taking responsibility for one’s own success and career–has been one of the most important aspects of my son’s time at USMMA.</p>

<p>When the next season’s done, it’s done, and football is over. But my son has taken what he’s learned in the sports program and earned assignments and commendations and medals in academy leadership as well.</p>

<p>And he’s taken that to the Pacific, the Atlantic, and to Navy supply ships in the anti-piracy fight off Somalia.</p>

<p>If that kind of education is a “joke” to some graduates, they may need to look in the mirror for the punch line.</p>

<p>USMMA2009,</p>

<p>Seems you got a little of topic. Let’s continue anyway. In your opinion, what steps should the academy take to suit your vision? More importantly, as a leader, what have you done to influence it in your desired direction?</p>

<p>@ slowandeasy: Actually both you and USMMA2009 are the ones off topic, suggest you start a new thread, the topic of this thread was before being derailed basically, </p>

<p>“… If he [ttownduo’s son] goes to KP, graduates and gets commissioned as an Ensign in the CG, what would typically be his first assignment (billet)? I don’t want to burst his emotional bubble but I’m afraid if he’s not coming out of CGA he’ll be relegated to an icebreaker or bouy tender - or worse yet - he’ll be plunked into a landlocked staff position. …”</p>

<p>My apologies. Ttownduo and their son deserve an informed answer.</p>