<p>heyitsme, you think its "even more likely" she "got a conscience"? a "consentual(sic) action"? did you hear anything the supe said at that savi brief? your ideas are disturbing and offensive. its tantamount to me saying, well, im sure he did it, cause he's a guy mid and we all know they have to get laid.</p>
<p>Refresh my memory, please....</p>
<p>"SAVI"?</p>
<p>
[quote]
as a girl i'm so sick of guys asserting that is was probably "consensual" and then she just decided to turn him in...because we all know girls are vindictive and dishonest like that. come on. that's low.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, perhaps not as low as someone who would cry foul after the fact- and it just takes a few to raise the question of doubt in the many, unfortunate as that might be. There are girls who are not only that low, but even lower and beyond contempt.</p>
<p>Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turn'd,
Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned.
- William Congreve, The Mourning Bride (act III, sc. 2)</p>
<p>On the flip side, there are victims of rape that deserve every ounce of support and protection that we can muster. So which one is it? </p>
<p>I agree that up to now the best thing to do is to let the investigation try and ferrit out the truth, for everyone's sake. The sad thing is, that while this particular mid is having his name broadcast across the entire media spectrum, the name of another mid, who at this very time is also being investigated for the same type of incident, somehow has managed to remain anonymous. </p>
<p>The dammage has already been done- ok if he is guilty, a crime if he is not. So far, proof enough to warrent further investigation- the final outcome remains to be seen.</p>
<p>My heart goes out to his parents- I can't imagine what they must be going through.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Refresh my memory, please....</p>
<p>"SAVI"?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sexual Assault and Violence Intervention.</p>
<p>We have staff trained in this very area. Despite tight real estate space, an area of our ER dedicated just to victims of sexual abuse. Seperate exam room. Seperate consultation room. Seperate outside entrance to this area of our ER.</p>
<p>For every 10 cases of rape, at least one turns out to be something "other than." Most involve aquaintances; random victimization, while it does happen, is much less prevelent, at least in this area. </p>
<p>Sex in the back seat of a car, caught by the inquisitive husband; wife claiming rape; in the meantime a lover sent packing to avoid an incident. Spend enough time at this and you hear and see it all.</p>
<p>And like I said, it only takes one case to prove "false" to put the seed of doubt into everyone's story. The sad thing is that victims, the true victims, get victimized all over again as a result of the actions of their own kind- other women- the low, vindictive, dishonest ones. Very, very sad.</p>
<p>she very well could have been raped, i'm not claiming to know what happened. the facts will come out. i was just saying my initial impression after hearing it. ive heard of two cases where a girl accused a guy of rape when it was originally consentual. its a shame it happened and its a shame that his name is getting trashed in the media before the truth comes out.</p>
<p>"I submit that there is no "tighter ship" among U.S. colleges & universities than USNA & other service academies, especially regarding sexual harrassment, acceptable behavior & personal discipline. This does not imply that every individual attending the academies is perfect, but one has to feel confident that in such an environment, any problems would be quickly identified, addressed & corrected. While this incident is tragic for the victim & the accused and unfortunate for everyone associated w/ USNA, the positive side is that it might bring into focus possible positive changes. If there are any issues that need to be addressed, you can bet they are doing it now or have already done it."</p>
<p>Lets hope they start by no longer tolerating inebriated cadets and midshipmen to return to post or base in that condition. Its been my experience when a behavior is technically against the rules but tolerated bad things are bound to happen. That is one area that could be "tightened" right away with almost certain positive results.</p>
<p>If a Midshipman drinks too much...where would you have them go? I would rather have them return to Bancroft Hall then sleep under a stairwell somewhere. Unless you ban alcohol, some Midshipmen will drink too much sometime during three years...driving to some motel or even driving is not the correct option. They need to be able to return to the Hall where it is one of the safest campuses in the nation.</p>
<p>If you're 21, you can (or at least use to be able to) drink at Dahlgren Hall or even the Officer and Faculty Club on-base on weekends. If you have one too many...going back to your room is a great choice. Remember they don't have too many other options at 12 midnight when their buddies bring them back. It's where they live. I am not condoning Midshipmen getting plastered but it is not a dry campus, town, or state and at 21 they should be able to have a beer or two. They should be held accountable for their actions but they shouldn't have to fear going back to "campus" either.</p>
<p>I guess thats a decision the academies will have to make. Not facing the problem head on will only make it worse.</p>
<p>Agree with both posts, shogun & mvljog - as adults within the legal drinking age, midshipmen should have the option to have "a beer or two". That shouldn't imply that it is appropriate to get smashed (that really applies to all adults). However, we all know that learning sometimes involves pushing the limits - how do you know when you've had too much - sometimes it's too late when "too much" starts to kick in! In that case, mvljog, you make a great point - back in Bancroft - under supervision - is where someone who's had too much belongs, not out on the street, afraid to go "home". </p>
<p>Isn't there a place for the subject of "responsible drinking" (if there is such a thing - or is that an oxymoron?) in the training of young officers? Many people don't understand the risks of alcohol poisoning, the potential for poor judgement when intoxicated, and other dangers associated with alcohol consumption - everyone needs to be informed about that, especially midshipmen & cadets who are supposed to be leaders of men (and women).</p>
<p>Surely "overindulging" is not as much a part of the "culture" at Service Academies as it is on other college campuses (?). If it is prevalent, then it should be addressed - ASAP - so the academies can accomplish their mission of, in part, producing graduates w/ the potential to assume the highest responsibilities of command & citizenship (etc.). </p>
<p>It would seem that, in light of all the "behavior modification" that takes place during the time at an academy, if those in command take the attitude that "getting smashed" isn't "cool" or "acceptable", certainly that would become the mindset of the general population in a very short time. Maybe that's wishful thinking - maybe that's already the attitude. Any current mids (or alumni) care to comment on the prevailing attitude about drinking??</p>
<p>It's been "being addressed" since long before I got there. It's not going to go away.</p>
<p>So long as their being drunk doesn't a) affect their ability to perform, b) doesn't make them dangerous, and c) doesn't reflect poorly on the Academy, then they should leave it alone.</p>
<p>If, however, someone steps out of line with respect to a), b), or c) above, then hit them with the Hammer of Thor.</p>
<p>Bit of info: According to The Princeton Review, USNA ranks fifth in Most Sober Schools (AFA ranks 2nd, just behind Brigham Young). </p>
<p>FWIW: These rankings are based on results from a survey with questions not just about alcohol & drug use, but also on the hours of study & popularity of the greek system. </p>
<p>Here's the link:
<a href="http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/rankings/rankingDetails.asp?categoryID=3&topicID=27%5B/url%5D">http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/rankings/rankingDetails.asp?categoryID=3&topicID=27</a></p>
<p>A couple of years ago, some magazine put out the list of the top 100 party schools in America. As you might imagine, the Service Academies were lumped in the bottom 10 or so, along with places like Harvard, MIT, etc.</p>
<p>I remember because when they asked the Supe what he thought of the ranking, his reply was, "Well, when you're grouped with schools like MIT, Yale, Harvard, etc., then I don't think the news is all that bad."</p>
<p>LOL!</p>
<p>While it cannot be said that USNA is a completely dry establishment, the fact is that, despite the occaisional stupid mid, alcohol isn't as much of a problem as you might think.</p>
<p>NAVY QB ACCUSED OF RAPE COULD FACE FURTHER CHARGES </p>
<p>The Associated Press State & Local Wire
March 10, 2006 Friday 5:12 AM GMT </p>
<p>Navy quarterback Lamar Owens could face additional charges stemming from the investigation of his alleged rape of a fellow academy midshipman in January, a Navy officer reviewing the case said Thursday. </p>
<p>Owens, who is already charged in military court with rape, conduct unbecoming an officer and committing indecent assault, may have also violated an order that he stay away from the alleged victim. He also allegedly had hundreds of pornographic images on his academy computer.
Thursday marked the second day of an Article 32 hearing akin to a grand jury review for Owens at the Washington Navy Yard on the rape allegations.
The hearing is to determine whether the Owens' case should go to a court martial. </p>
<p>During the hearing, a Navy prosecutor presented the evidence of the two additional charges. As a result, the investigating officer presiding over the case said the hearing will be continued on April 3 to allow more time to investigate the new allegations. </p>
<p>Owens, 22, who led Navy's football team to an 8-4 record this season and was the team's most valuable player, did not testify during the two-day hearing. His defense attorneys presented only one witness, while prosecutors put the victim, several of her friends and investigator on the stand. </p>
<p>The woman, a 20-year-old junior at the Annapolis military school who has not been publicly identified, said Wednesday that she awoke from a drunken stupor to find Owens on top of her, having sex with her in the early morning of Jan. 29. Prosecutors played a tape a phone conversation she had with Owens a week later, in which he repeatedly says he is sorry and worries that she will contact the police. </p>
<p>But Owens' attorneys have tried to show it is unclear that the sex was not consensual. The woman admitted she was so drunk that she could not remember significant portions of that night. </p>
<p>During questioning, Owens' attorney Steven Wrobel also suggested she may have embellished her story about the rape to cover for her breaking academy rules on drinking and having sex in dorms. </p>
<p>One of the woman's friends, Midshipman Elizabeth Burnett, testified Thursday that Owens implied he did not rape her when Burnett and another of the woman's friends confronted Owens later on Jan. 29. </p>
<p>"He said, 'You know, I think we were both pretty drunk. I think things just escalated,'" Burnett recalled. </p>
<p>Burnett said she told Owens that the alleged victim didn't describe the incident in such innocuous terms, and asked whether the sex had been consensual. </p>
<p>"We asked if she gave him signs that this is what she wanted and he said, 'No, not at all,'" Burnett testified. </p>
<p>Wrobel said after the hearing that he believes Owens will be cleared of the charges, but wouldn't comment further since the case is ongoing. The investigating officer, Cmdr. Jeffrey Fischer, will make a recommendation to Naval Academy Superintendent Admiral Rodney Rempt, who will decide whether Owens will face a court martial on the charges. </p>
<p>The military academies have faced closed scrutiny recently for alleged incidents of sexual harassment and abuse. A Pentagon report released last summer found those problems persist at the
Naval Academy even as the school works to eliminate them. </p>
<p>Burnett said the woman faced intense pressure over whether to report Owens to criminal investigators. Not only was he the football team quarterback, but women are reluctant to report abuse because they fear it reinforces stereotypes about women at the academy, Burnett said. </p>
<p>"Any girl who turns in any guy at our school is going to get crucified," Burnett said. </p>
<p>After Navy investigators began probing the alleged rape, Owens was given the military version of a restraining order on Feb. 9 that instructed him to stay away from the woman. But six days later, the officer who oversaw his unit at the academy saw Owens walk down the woman's hall while she was in her dorm room, even though he had been told to stay off the floor, referred to as a "deck." </p>
<p>"As soon as I saw him, I couldn't believe he was on the deck," Lt. Ryan Frommelt said. </p>
<p>The pornography charge stems from the more than 700 pornographic images that investigators allegedly found on Owens' computer while investigating the rape.</p>
<p>"The woman, a 20-year-old junior at the Annapolis military school who has not been publicly identified, said Wednesday that she awoke from a drunken stupor..." </p>
<p>I would hope the "victim" will be finishing her education at some other institution of higher learning. Not much empathy for her here.</p>
<p>When are college-aged adults who decide to get completely drunk ( or stoned) going to realize that anything that can and/or does happen is THEIR fault!? The young ladies who claim to have been 'raped' certainly took the first step in sexual vulnerability by drinking themselves to the point of oblivion. No one poured the alchohol down their throats or via an IV into their bodies. In this age of "choice" the young women HAVE to start thinking about their personal responsibilities. This is not to let the guys off the hook, by the way....the flip side of my rant applies to them.</p>
<p>Listen, I lived in our college's first co-ed dorm in 1971. You name the activities, the perversions, the outrageous parties, the sexual creativities explored....I saw it ALL way back then. So I am not the least bit naive about what goes on in college life.</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, for me, one quarter of college trying out the drinking scene was enough to convince me how stupid it all was, how dangerous and how serious the consequences could be for all who did so. In a way, living in this environment was an innoculation for me against the kinds of behaviors of many of my dorm mates. It was patently obvious that drinking yourself into unconsciousness leaves you open to sexual contact you may or may not want to have....and this DID happen with regularity amongst that crowd.</p>
<p>I wasn't religious then - but looking back I can only think God was taking care of me.</p>
<p>As a mother of a young lady about to commit 4 years of her life to the hallowed halls of Mother B ( not to mention this is child #5 to go off to co-ed college life)....I have no illusions about the potentials ahead for the same college-poor-choices for some midshipmen that I faced, and my other kids faced....Honor code notwithstanding.</p>
<p>I can only hope the Christian values my husband and I have instilled in our children will give them the strength of character to make good choices when faced with what ---eventually---every one of our midshipmen, sons or daughters will face....opportunities for abuse of sex/alchohol/drugs/etc.</p>
<p>I honestly do not think USNA has anywhere near the problems all colleges have with this, because at USNA it is still considered WRONG, while at the schools my other children have attended, most people shrug their shoulders at the very behavior that may get Lamar Owens dismissed from the Academy.</p>
<p>The very fact that USNA has a STANDARD is something to champion!</p>
<p>A second question concerning the reports of the number of porno on Owen's computer....I was of the understanding that USNA really blocks the download of this stuff and regularly monitors mids access to this on their computer. Am I naive? Can a real-life mid weigh in on this???</p>
<p>
[quote]
Prosecutors played a tape a phone conversation she had with Owens a week later, in which he repeatedly says he is sorry and worries that she will contact the police.</p>
<p>But Owens' attorneys have tried to show it is unclear that the sex was not consensual. The woman admitted she was so drunk that she could not remember significant portions of that night.</p>
<p>During questioning, Owens' attorney Steven Wrobel also suggested she may have embellished her story about the rape to cover for her breaking academy rules on drinking and having sex in dorms.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Enough. Expell them both and be done with it.</p>
<p>Damned idiots ruining the reputation of a premier institution. Should be a keelhauling offense..... under an aircraft carrier.</p>
<p>She may have been in a "drunken stupor" as a result of being drugged by the date rape drug. Let's withold judgement until more facts come out.</p>
<p>I Agree with Zaphod. Protect her name for the rape...fine, but kick her butt out right along with Owens. Done.</p>
<p>
[quote]
She may have been in a "drunken stupor" as a result of being drugged by the date rape drug. Let's withold judgement until more facts come out.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, and she may be making the whole thing up.... :rolleyes:</p>