USNA vs USCGA

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>Oh man, so many posts and so little time. Let me start here:</p>

<p>"I’d also like to see retired Marine Corp officers running some of our troubled secondary schools."</p>

<p>Wstcoastmom, I almost hate to say it, but I'm in complete agreement with you here. A lot of people don't see it the same way that we do. For example, my wife (who got out of the Marines as a Captain, holds a BS in Chemistry and an M.Ed in Education) WANTED to be a high school science teacher after she left the service. Alas, she couldn't get hired (not enough teaching experience was cited over and over?!) and was forced to take a FAR more lucrative job in corporate America.</p>

<p>I'm all about mandatory service immediately following high school, too. I won't go into all the details, but I think this makes sense on so many levels!</p>

<p>Enough happy talk!</p>

<p>"It wasn't too long ago that even THAT wasn't true. Time, tolerance, and mutual respect that comes from actually spending time with other people has a tendancy to overcome social anxst and bigotry."</p>

<p>Even today, in the civilian world, putting a woman into a group of white guys has a vastly different effect than putting a black man into the same group. Somebody is going to try and hook-up with the woman. Another guy is going to get jealous because he wants to hook-up. A third guy will be mad because the other two guys are paying more attention to the woman than to the project. The woman will be trying prove she belongs (or deflect advances or promote advances). Women bring an entirely new dynamic to any group, and this dynamic doesn't go away with time. With blacks, the idea was "they're too stupid" or "they're just cowards" or some similar sentiment--that's why whites didn't want them in combat (or the bulk of military jobs in general). The other religous and economic-based group dynamics that you refer to are just plain different than the male-female dynamic, in my view. I'm not arguing that women are incapable of going into combat--I'm just saying that their mere presence is going to have a negative impact on the men, in a way that putting a poor black guy from Georgia in a fighting hole with a rich, white preppie-guy from Seattle just won't evoke. Maybe it's not right, but that's the way it is. </p>

<p>"I ABSOLUTELY believe that if there is a draft that it should be men and women. How can you justify national service for one sex and not the other?"</p>

<p>I also think a draft should be for both sexes, but for a different reason than you. I would support drafting women to put them into non-combat arms roles, thus freeing up more men for combat. </p>

<p>The rationale for only having men register for the draft was that calling up draftees was only going to happen if people were needed for combat. Since women weren't allowed into combat at all, it made no sense to register them. Since this isn't really true in today's military, I don't really understand why women aren't required to register.</p>

<p>DeepThroat</p>

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<p>sempergumby
"Recently the Commander of the Marine Training Base on Parris Island asserted that "there is no reason the female can't fight just like the male."10</p>

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<p>shogun-
It is unwise to pull a quote lacking context to make your case. First of all, it wasn't recently. That quote was used by a professor at Duke University who authored an Air Review article July-August 1977 entitled "Should women be permitted in combat-yes" George Wilson quoted, then, Major General Arthur Poillon who assumed duty as the CG of the Marine Corps Recruit Depot at Parris Island, SC after he was promoted in 1975.
At the same time there was a review article "Should women be permitted in combat-no"</p>

<ol>
<li>Major General Arthur J. Poillon quoted by George Wilson in "U.S. Marines Now Looking for 'A Few Good Women,'" Roanoke Times (7 March 1976), p. 2; Congressional Quarterly (13 July 1974), p. 1820. </li>
</ol>

<p>Review Article Disclaimer
The conclusions and opinions expressed in this document are those of the author cultivated in the freedom of expression, academic environment of Air University. They do not reflect the official position of the U.S. Government, Department of Defense, the United States Air Force or the Air University.</p>

<p>Shogun-once again, you seem to be focusing on one factor, when there are many as cited in the Presidential Commission. Let's just agree to disagree. I sincerely wish your daughter much success, good health and spirit at West Point and as a commissioned officer in the United States Army.</p>

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<p>shogun-</p>

<p>I thought you might enjoy this link (if you don't already have it saved to your favorites). At the bottom of the article (1998) you'll find additional releases (particularly 98366) pertaining to women. The entire site is a wealth of current information if you click on the links at the top of the page- War on Terror, Transformation, etc...</p>

<p><a href="http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug1998/n08121998_9808123.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug1998/n08121998_9808123.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>semper</p>

<p>I certainly didn't intend to mislead or mis-quote any source. I also don't want to post huge gobs of info for such an informal discussion. I merely picked out the statements that were made and posted them. The fact that a Marine General as far back as the mid 70's were make a comment stating that he couldn't think of a combat role a woman couldn't do is significant, whether he supported them actually doing that role officically or not. The discussion is really abt whether women should be assigned combat duty or not merely based on their gender.</p>

<p>Thanks for the link, and good luck!</p>

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<p>WOW! THIS THREAD IS AMAZING! I find it so interesting that a thread titled USNA vs. USCGA on the Naval Academy forum has generated a discussion like this. The sad thing is it was my fault. Shogun said her daughter chose West Point so she could lead men and women into harms way, and this is how I responded:</p>

<p>"Well said, though aren't women restricted from serving in combat leadership roles? I was curious about this, but since shogun's daughter will be leading men and women into "harms way," aren't women restricted from all direct combat roles?"</p>

<p>And BOOM! Now it's a full blown discussion of women's equality in the military! You know what? I say just let them try. I would be surprised if just ONE female had the guts or the physical strength to do it. I hate to sound like a male chauvenist pig, but a platoon of all male soldiers likely wouldn't afford her the same respect in combat. Not to say I wouldn't, but geez, simply the female president of my school's chapter of NHS doesn't get the same kind of respect the male did last year. Many young guys without a college education would have a hard time following a women who is almost certainly weaker and less physically capable as they are. I predict that in that event, male enlistment for combat roles would plummet.</p>

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<p>DrSnipes17 That last one will push Shogun off the deep end! LOL Good Luck and you better take cover.</p>

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<p>Hey! It's all opinion here! Shogun has her opinions, and I have mine. I think there is however two stark differences. First and foremost, I am a male and she a female. Secondly, I am actually (planning) on going into the military, maybe the Army. I am just trying to show my opinion.</p>

<p>That is that the military is here to defend our country and people. It's not here to garentee everyone a job. Having women in combat won't make it safer, so why do it?</p>

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<p>I think shogun is the father of a female candidate (appointee).</p>

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<p>HA! Wow, that would have been good to know. Wow, I really didn't get that impression, but thanks for the info, OK! Well in that case there is only ONE stark difference. Sorry for the confusion, I guess I just figured that with shogun's almost fanatical support of women in combat, that shogun must have been a female.</p>

<p>Shogun, do you have any sons? It't just out of pure curiosity.</p>

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<p>Just for fun I thought I wade in on the discussion...</p>

<p>I am female (obviously by the screen name) I work for and support women's rights through my employment and through my political beliefs but I have reservations about women in all areas of the military. I agree that women should be allowed the same opportunities (and I work for that every day) and that there are some that can function to the same degree as men, but I think to generalize that all women should have these opportunities (front line) probably isn't in the best interest of the military. </p>

<p>On the flip side I have a son that has worked hard to be a candidate at USNA and was told that he is the wrong race and gender at the first Academy night we participated in a couple of years ago. (Which makes me crazy.)</p>

<p>I also spend time in a predominately female dominated business (nursing). There are many effective men in the profession but that said there are areas where men do not do as good a job as women and to generalize about men in the profession isn't a great idea either.</p>

<p>If we can all capitalize on our differences and make them work to the best advantage instead of all trying to be better than the other or the same this world would be a better place to live and work in. Now I will get fried by women on this site...</p>

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<p>"On the flip side I have a son that has worked hard to be a candidate at USNA and was told that he is the wrong race and gender at the first Academy night we participated in a couple of years ago."</p>

<p>Say what?</p>

<p>DeepThroat</p>

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<p>DeepThroat-
I believe that is to be interpreted as: "As a white male his overall score wasn't high enough to get him in. If he had been a [black/hispanic/asian] female, he would have been in for sure".</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Sorry for the confusion, I guess I just figured that with shogun's almost fanatical support of women in combat, that shogun must have been a female.

[/quote]

That's okay, Dr. Snipes. It wasn't your only incorrect assumption ;)</p>

<p>You'll find, when Shogun replies, that he also has a son. And that reasonable people of both sexes can take different sides of this debate.</p>

<p>Tyleroar/Deep Throat - It's a matter of record that women and men have the same average WCS scores entering USNA (I can dig up the reference if you're desperate). However, it's also a matter of record that the % of white males has dropped significantly over the past 10 years at USNA.</p>

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<p>Very well, Shogun, I pose you this question. Do you feel your daughter would be physically cabable of leading men in combat in the exact same way the typical male officer could. This could include carrying out an injured man, running long distances, being out long periods of time in the heat, or carrying up to 100 pounds of weaponry and gear?</p>

<p>While I wouldn't expect any proud father to say his daughter is "incapable" of something, I think you should be honest. Also, if you don't mind telling me, is she what you would consider a forboding, authoratative figure? Is she over 6 feet tall? is she large or well built? Does she have a distinctively high pitched or feeble voice?</p>

<p>To be honest, I don't really expect you to answer those questions, but that is part of what an enlisted soldier looks for in a junior officer and leader. It's nobody's fault, but women naturally cannot portray many of those skills. Also, women would run a much greater risk in the event of capture. Rape, Pregnancy, STD's, sexual abuse. A man can avoid these things, especially in the mid-east, only because their it is a different world. Women are second class citizens, and many cannot go out without a veil.</p>

<p>It's not just the nature of women, but the nature of today's enemy that makes women combat leaders or soldiers a major risk on the governments part.</p>

<p>Just a thought.</p>

<p>by the way shogun, I really like your screen name. I did my 9th grade history fair project on Japan's First Shogun, Yoritomo Minamoto. I am a military history buff, so I did extensive study on Medieval Japans centuries of military rule. Way off topic, but I thought you should know.</p>

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<p>I've jumped in and jumped out and thought I would stay out of this as it seems to be going round and round in circles. However, with DrSnipes latest comments, I feel that, as a woman (and a self-proclaimed strong one at that) I must respond. One question you asked was whether or not Shogun belived his daughter could lead in the same way a man could...etc. Probably not would be my answer. The diversity of individuals and how they lead does not come from how heavy a pack they can carry, but how heavy a "load" they can support. Officers are trained to think on their feet; something I believe both sexes have the capability to do. You can look at various studies on the human brain and the male/female comparisons, but many strong-willed and minded females could and do make unmatchable officers, leading men and women every day. People follow those whom they respect. </p>

<p>What I feel most compelled to comment on, however, is that your sexist views are so strong for someone so young. I am deeply disappointed that, as a young man you feel this way about women. I certainly expected it from those in generations older than myself (I am almost 40), but not from those who could be my children. I thought we had come so much further than that. I know that my daughter currently faces those such as you as well as professors who don't feel she should be there etc. However, despite all of that, she is standing tall and shining...and leading. (gasp) I am sure that Shogun's pride in his daughter has nothing to do with the fact that she is his daughter, but because of her accomplishments as his child; male or female. I guess as you are still young, you don't have the experience of age to see powerful people of both sexes lead. I don't know if you have been accepted yet, but if you are, your attitude should be curbed or the cadre (male AND female) will sniff it out so fast your head will spin. The best of luck to you.</p>

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<p>It is not about his WPS, I have no idea what that is...that was said to my son directly with no prior knowledge of anything about him by somewone representing a congressmans office.</p>

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<p>You are fortunate to have an appointment so early in the year. In big states that isn't the case and what is required may be different. It is one of the unique aspects of the Service Academy admissions process. It ensures goegraphic distribution. Read the article posted this week about the Admissions process. To be told you are the wrong gender and race by a congressmans office when they know nothing else about you is disheartening. Look at Affirmative Action in other colleges this past year and don't kid yourself about requirements. Just relax and enjoy the fact that you are in.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Is she over 6 feet tall?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh? Didn't realize that the standard for infantry platoon leaders was 6 feet. Better let the academies know that only 15% of the male population qualifies (according to the National Center for Health Statistics).</p>

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<p>juniormom-
Are you trying to say that NO white males were nominated by your son's congressman?</p>