USNews Rankings - PhD: FSU vs UF vs USF vs UM

Colleges and Universities A-Z Florida State University
1

<p>These are national rankings from USNews:
(lower is better; ** = no ranking)</p>

<p>BioScience:
FSU-92; UF-60; USF-143; UM-100</p>

<p>Criminology:
FSU-12; UF-13; USF-<strong>; UM-</strong></p>

<p>Chemistry:
FSU-46; UF-35; USF-<strong>; UM-</strong></p>

<p>Computer Science:
FSU-<strong>; UF-49; USF-</strong>; UM-**</p>

<p>Earth Science:
FSU-71; UF-64; USF-**; UM-46</p>

<p>Library Science and Information Studies:
FSU-10; UF-<strong>; USF-29; UM-</strong></p>

<p>Library Science and Information Studies
(School Library Media)
FSU-5; UF-<strong>; USF-</strong>; UM-**</p>

<p>Library Science and Information Studies
(Child and Youth)
FSU-1; UF-<strong>; USF-</strong>; UM-**</p>

<p>Mathematics:
FSU-68; UF-56; USF-**; UM-99</p>

<p>Physics:
FSU-45; UF-42; USF-<strong>; UM-</strong></p>

<p>Physics-Nuclear:
FSU-13; UF-<strong>; USF-</strong>; UM-**</p>

<p>Clearly FSU has work to do, but they have a strong presence as one of Florida's two flagship universities.</p>

<p>I saw no ratings at this level for UCF, therfore they are not included.</p>

2

<p>More US News Ratings (Graduate School)</p>

<p>This figures are from 2003, so bear that in mind.</p>

<p>Master of Fine Arts ( MFA )
FSU-62; UF-86; USF-104; UM-135</p>

3

<p>This is more USNews information.</p>

<p>This data is from 2004.</p>

<p>Master in Public Affairs
FSU-27; UF-<strong>; USF-</strong>; UM-**; UCF 101; FAU 67; FIU 79</p>

4

<p>HI you seem to know a lot about FSU. My son was accepted and is accepted into the learners scholar program, which is a community outreach program. they only accept a limited amount of kids, and it comes with a scholarship. Myson will also be getting bright futures. altho we are Florida residents, my son grew up overseas, and I always envisioned him in a small LAC, not a huge state school. But it seems the small colleges he got accepted to are going to cost a great deal. FSU will basically be very cheap and affordable. I worry that it is so big. My son has always been a huge fish in a small pond and i worry he will get "lost" in the crowd and not be able to manage the big classes. I worry that he will be in classes that are huge and his profs wont know him. I am writig to you because you seem to post a lot of things on FSU and would like to get your feel. My son just missed getting into the honors program so that is out for him. but he did apply for a live/learning dorm which i think will make the big school a bit more personable. Would love to hear your insights. he was also accepted t Univ of miami, which i can see him at, and it is smaller, and he is in the school of comm there, where at FSU he willhave to apply for that major, but UM is going to cost us about 80K for the 4 years, even with a 50% tuition schola. tht he got. any advice for us?
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<p>Quick Reply</p>

5

<p>FSU is a large state flagship school with a long history of premier academic work wherein most freshmen are former 'large fish' from small ponds. From my own view and experience this means that suddenly kids who were among the talented academic stars at high school are now average, meaning all their new FSU peers are smart, motivated and competing for grades, dorms and everything else. This is not easy for them to accept sometimes.</p>

<p>Just like every other freshman, your kid and my kids (I have one junior at FSU and another freshman on the way in August) have to adjust to this reality and learn to work harder and more efficiently. It is a leveling process that our kids have to adjust to, with the help of the FSU staff and more senior students. I think that while this process causes stress on the kids and angst in us parents, it is perfectly normal and essential and frankly, I would not want it any other way, as I want my kids to able to survive on their own in the real world. </p>

<p>Having said that, I have found the FSU staff to be very aware of this process and sympathetic to the worries and concerns of new students, which I found found remarkable for such a big school. This does not mean they will hesitate an instant to flunk our kids out if they don't do the work, make no mistake. They will not long tolerate sloth, as there are many kids who were turned away from FSU to give the kids with the best grades and other indicators admission to the university. </p>

<p>The Honors program is great, but with the close access these kids get with senior professors, the course work is also substantially more demanding, requiring the same process of adjustment, maybe even in a shorter time period. I remember when my older kid qualified for Calc II Honors as an incoming freshman, with a full professsor and was ready to jump into the work. I think I was more worried than she, remembering how tough university work could be, but she adjusted quickly and got an 'A'. (I'm not sure if I adjusted or not though ; ^ ) </p>

<p>Since adaptability is supposedly the hallmark of intelligence, I suggest that if your child was admitted to FSU they have what it takes to survive and will thrive if given the chance.</p>

<p>I cannot see for an instant what is worth $80,000 at UM or any other similar school, that cannot be had from FSU for less. There is no way I would saddle my kid or myself with that kind of debt, or even a part thereof, for an undergraduate education when an alternative like Florida State is available.</p>

6

<p>Thank you so much for a very insightful letter. You have clarified a great deal for me.</p>

7

<p>With all due respect to Parent2noles, she has provided selected data in her comparison of FSU with UF. UF in general has many top-50, top-20, and top 10 programs...far more than FSU. Below is a summary of US News rankings of UF programs. You will find few that aren't top 50. Sorry about the formatting. FSU has some great programs, though.</p>

<p>College/Program Program Level Ranked Overall US News Rank</p>

<p>Business Schools Graduate 42
Education Schools Graduate 25
Engineering Schools Graduate 25
Engineering (Programs with Ph.D.) Undergraduate 31
Law Schools Graduate 41
Medical Schools - Research Graduate 46
Medical Schools - Primary Care Graduate 48
Veterinary Schools Graduate 9</p>

<p>Accounting Graduate 19
Accounting Undergraduate 11
Administration Education Graduate NR
Advertising Graduate 2
Aerospace Engineering Graduate 20
Aerospace Engineering Undergraduate 19
Agricultural Engineering Graduate 11
Agricultural Engineering Undergraduate 11
Analytical Chemistry-Ph.D. Graduate 7
Applied Mathematics-Ph.D. Graduate 61
Architecture-Master's Graduate 26
Audiology Graduate 8
Biochemistry Graduate NR
Biological Sciences-Ph.D. Graduate 54
Biomedical Engineering Graduate NR
Business Undergraduate 25
Business Administration - Executive M.B.A. Graduate NR
Business Administration - Part Time M.B.A. Graduate NR
Chemical Engineering Graduate 25
Chemical Engineering Undergraduate 21
Chemistry-Ph.D. Graduate 32
Civil Engineering Graduate 34
Civil Engineering Undergraduate 17
Clinical Psychology-Doctorate Graduate 20
Computer Engineering Graduate 39
Computer Science-Databases Graduate 12
Computer Science-Ph.D. Graduate 47
Counseling Education Graduate 3
Creative Writing-Master's Graduate 20
Criminology - Ph.D. Graduate 11
Curriculum & Instruction Graduate NR
Dentistry-Doctor of Dental Medicine Graduate 18
Economics-Industrial Organization Graduate NR
Economics-Ph.D. Graduate 44
Educational Psychology Graduate NR
Electrical Engineering Graduate 29
Electrical Engineering Undergraduate NR
Elementary Education Graduate NR
English-Ph.D. Graduate 46
Environmental Engineering Graduate 20
Environmental Engineering Undergraduate 14
Environmental Law Graduate 17
Finance Graduate 21
Finance Undergraduate 22
Fine Arts-Master's Graduate 74
Geology Graduate NR
Health Services Administration Graduate 29
Higher Education Administration Graduate NR
History-Ph.D. Graduate 46
Industrial Engineering Graduate 16
Industrial Engineering Undergraduate 16
Latin American History Graduate 14
Law-Trial Advocacy Graduate 13
Management Graduate 28
Management Undergraduate NR
Management Information Systems Undergraduate NR
Marketing Graduate 12
Marketing Undergraduate 9
Materials Engineering Graduate 8
Materials Engineering Undergraduate 10
Mathematics-Ph.D. Graduate 51
Mechanical Engineering Graduate 28
Mechanical Engineering Undergraduate 23
Microbiology and Cell Science Graduate NR
Music-Master's Graduate 60
Neuroscience Graduate NR
Nuclear Engineering Graduate 12
Nuclear Engineering Undergraduate 10
Nursing-Master's Graduate 39
Nursing: Midwifery-Master's/Doc Graduate 13
Occupational Therapy Graduate 15
Pharmacy-Pharm.D. Graduate 11
Physical Therapy-Master's/Doctorate Graduate 25
Physician's Assistant-Master's Graduate 17
Physics-Ph.D. Graduate 38
Political Science-Ph.D. Graduate 48
Print Journalism Graduate 6
Psychology-Ph.D. Graduate 66
Public Relations Graduate 2
Quantitative Analysis Graduate NR
Radio/Television Graduate 2
Real Estate Undergraduate 8
Rehabilitation Counseling-Master's/Doc Graduate 9
Secondary Education Graduate NR
Sociology-Ph.D. Graduate 46
Special Education Graduate 11
Speech/Language Pathology-Master's Graduate 17
Taxation Undergraduate 5
Tax Law Graduate 2</p>

8

<p>Interesting list, but one-sided favoring UF. Where are the comparable ratings for the other schools? Are we to take your word for the ratings of the other schools or for what is on your list, for that matter? </p>

<p>Going to the UF website and copying over self-proclaimed ratings from who knows what period, is not objective. Further, the list I posted is not from FSU sources, unless I show that as the source, it is from the USNews website, with the appropriate rating period shown.</p>

<p>For example - UF may have a nice rating for some program from some period that is propagated by the university for years, as sales hype. This is not uncommon, nor particular to UF for that matter.</p>

<p>Lastly, the analysis I posted is not meant to be so pro-FSU that it immediately sets it's credibility to question, but only to show where in the USNews graduate reports the major Florida state universities are compared to each other. </p>

<p>No school in Florida, including FSU or UF are so accomplished that they cannot improve. Being rated 45 in something is not something to crow about, except in the context of getting better.</p>

9

<p>I apologize for placing this data in the FSU section of cc....I was following a link in another thread posted by parent2noles and I ended up here. No disrepect is intended to the the FSU community. My hackles are still up by parent2noles, where, in other threads, where she claimed FSU was "clearly the best school in Florida".</p>

10

<p>Nothing personal to you, rogracer, but sweeping statements about being the 'best' can be pretty annoying, can't they? The truth is FSU can make such a claim every bit as much as UF - but, it depends on the program (this qualifier is often times neglected by the person making the statement).</p>

<p>For a long time I've looked at this board and read outrageous statements about such things, often times by UF folks, concerning FSU. Unfortunately, such things over time can actually have an effect on kids and parents making decisions about schools - to their peril. </p>

<p>I intend to measure, very, very carefully such claims and, by using the same standard used to put forth such foolishness and arrogance introduce a bit of objectivity into the discussion. Further, with a knowledge of state history and acquaintance with both schools, put this vanity into some perspective hopefully closer to the truth. </p>

<p>Sometimes, accuracy and truth may even result, which will certainly benefit those seeking knowledge.</p>

11

<p>"The truth is FSU can make such a claim every bit as much as UF - but, it depends on the program "</p>

<p>That is a ridiculous.</p>

<p>Why would anyone want to go to Florida State over UF?</p>

12

<p>Lots of reasons. </p>

<p>FSU has some programs that are much better than UFL programs. The reverse is also true. It was set up this way. The schools are not clones of each other.</p>

<p>Time for UFL advocates to face reality.</p>

13

<p>The reality is that UF is better in Medicine, Engineering, Business, Law, & Education etc....</p>

<p>Also UF is about 100 SAT points higher than FSU as well.</p>

<p>Trying to compare FSU to UF, is the equivalent of UF to Duke</p>

14

<p>That's a nonsense comparison. UF is no Duke and will never be as a land-grant school. Duke is a small wealthy school mostly attended by very wealthy people's kids. People who believe such a comparison are seriously misinformed to their disadvantage. Then again, these are probably the same people who'd rather have classes on tape and think that's a good thing, just because it's on a VCR that belongs to UF.</p>

<p>UF has an edge in SATs at the moment; but it was not always this way. In the 1970s and earlier FSU had the stronger academic students. This will change again back and forth as years pass. 100 +/- points is only a recent event and fluxes every year. Believe it or not, this is actually influenced by the success of sports teams.</p>

<p>Law School is seriously debatable; and depends on the area of law.</p>

<p>Med and Engineering are better at UF at the moment. Med may change as FSU's Med School matures; time will tell.</p>

<p>Education is incremental - some programs are better, some aren't - that's the whole point you seem to be missing.</p>

15

<p>You clearly don't know what your talking about. My point is that UF is the flagship University in the state of Florida. To try and argue that FSU is the equivalent to UF is just plain comical.</p>

<p>FSU's Medical School doesn't even have a teaching hospital (so hense will never get significant research dollars). In fact I have serious doubts about the medical program at FSU due to the fact that they will be competing with UCF & FIU's brand new medical schools for state appropriations.</p>

<p>The FSU & FAMU co-engineering program is in shambles, and is not likely to ever improve due to the fact that neither side truly has any desire to improve it's overall rankings.</p>

16

<p>UF is only the co-flagship university, with Florida State as the other.</p>

<p>They do not own this self-proclaimed title and never will. UF also used to say they were the 'oldest' university in Florida. Obviously this is not true either.</p>

17

<p>Oops, got phone calls and was timed out.</p>

<p>UF is only the co-flagship university, with Florida State as the other.</p>

<p>They do not own this self-proclaimed title and never will. </p>

<p>Another fact of life is that UF also used to say they were the 'oldest' university in Florida. Obviously this is not true either, since the official foundational date for both universities is 1851. UF, actually the predecessor school, also did not exist during the Civil War, when it was closed. Cadets from what became FSU fought the Union Army at Natural Bridge, FL thus preventing Tallahassee from falling into Union hands. After the Confederacy fell, Union troops occupied FSU buildings for some time. See, FSU has been in the same location since the beginning in the 1850s. Some could also claim FSU had origins earlier than 1851, as it absorbed a school in Tallahassee started in 1843. Clearly, in view of these facts, FSU has the best claim on being the 'oldest' university in Florida. </p>

<p>UF, on the other hand, moved from Ocala to Lake City until 1905, when finally it became UF in Gainesville.</p>

<p>I believe the UF administration also claims the title 'Harvard of the South'. This is equally false, and pretentious. If any southern school has a claim to such a title it is the University of Virginia. </p>

<p>See: <a href="http://www.virginia.edu/uvatours/shorthistory/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.virginia.edu/uvatours/shorthistory/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This is not to 'diss' UF or it's graduates. It's a fine state school. I have family members who are graduates. I merely point this out as perceptions exist that some UF proponents are a bit too full of themselves and ignore history and reality. Some may even be a trifle condescending.</p>

18

<ul>
<li>UF = (50) Tier 1 status</li>
<li>FSU = (109) Barely above Tier 3 status</li>
<li>UCF = Tier 3</li>
<li>USF, FIU, FAU, FAMU, UNF, FGCU, UWF = Tier 4 status</li>
</ul>

<p>Clearly the University of Florida is the Flagship University in the state.</p>

19

<p>Not quite.</p>

<p>US News rankings are also subject to political influence. In 2002 FSU was ranked 64 in those rankings. FSU hires T.K. Wetherell as President and the rankings plummet to 112 the next year. They are creeping up again for whatever reason.</p>

<p>Clearly, the hiring of one person does not wipe out years and years of effort by thousands, though from the US News perspective you'd think half the university burned down sometime in 2003.</p>

<p>A more interesting point is that a chemist at FSU developed the synthetic version of the anti-cancer drug Taxol, which previously was nearly impossible to provide commercially as it'd kill virtually every northwestern Yew tree in the US. FSU has, as a result, now earned more than 3 times from Taxol than UF has from Gatorade, putting FSU into the realm of Columbia University and the California universities in terms of research profits. I doubt if this type of information figures into your analysis and this is but one example.</p>

<p>There are more to huge universities than magazine ratings. To put such importance into to such things is foolish, though I understand why people allow themselves to be so persuaded. It's easy and they are looking for an easy way to make a decision.</p>

<p>One last thing - being '50' is nothing to crow about.</p>

20

<p>First off, U.S. News has a system that measures over 8 different factors to determine how Universities should be ranked (endowment, peer assesment, graduate rates, SAT/ACT score, alumni giving, research dollars, etc...) In every single one of these factors UF is superior to FSU. </p>

<p>ALSO to address your Taxol comment</p>

<p>"a chemist at FSU developed the synthetic version of the anti-cancer drug Taxol, which previously was nearly impossible to provide commercially as it'd kill virtually every northwestern Yew tree in the US. FSU has, as a result, now earned more than 3 times from Taxol than UF has from Gatorade, putting FSU into the realm of Columbia University and the California universities in terms of research profits. I doubt if this type of information figures into your analysis and this is but one example."</p>

<p>Actually Taxol was a cash cow for FSU during the mid to late 90's. You have to understand that the research dollars brought in by this drug have ceased to continue due to it's patent expiring. As of the 2000's FSU gets very little residual dollars from this cancer fighting product. You also should cease to tout Dr. Holtons accomplishments due to the fact that he is suing your university for over 18 million dollars.</p>