USNWR Slanted in favor of the Northeast

College Search & Selection
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<p>USNWR Rankings Stacked Against All Schools Not in the Northeast!</p>

<p>This is hardly a news flash as many have commented on this before, but it is always an interesting topic. Yet because many discussions on CC refer to the annual USNWR rankings, many users/readers accept them as fact or at least a close approximation of the caliber of a school. </p>

<p>What are your thoughts on whether the reputations of the schools in the Northeast are deserved and/or whether the schools in the Midwest, the South, and the West are underrated? In particular, is the Peer Assessment, which measures the reputation of a school among academics and is the largest weight in the USNWR rankings, an accurate reflection of a school's academic quality? For example, is the quality of teaching at Columbia or Cornell really that much better than what goes on at Emory or Vanderbilt or Notre Dame or is this just a classic reflection of regional bias??? </p>

<p>TOP Universities Ranked 1-11
Northeast (7 schools)
1 Princeton, 2 Harvard, 3 Yale, 4 MIT, 7 Penn, 9 Dartmouth, 9 Columbia
South (1 school)
8 Duke
Midwest (1 school)
9 Chicago
West (2 schools)
4 Cal Tech, 4 Stanford</p>

<p>Top Universities Ranked 12-15
Northeast (2 schools)
12 Cornell, 15 Brown
South (0 schools)</p>

<p>Midwest (2 schools)
12 Wash U StL, 14 Northwestern
West (0 schools)</p>

<p>Top Universities Ranked 16-20
Northeast (1 school)
16 Johns Hopkins
South (3 schools)
17 Rice, 18 Emory, 18 Vanderbilt
Midwest (1 school)
20 Notre Dame
West (0 schools)</p>

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<p>I do not think there is a regional bias because the rankings don't take region into account.</p>

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<p>right, the region is approx. 0% of the formula.</p>

<p>unless peer assessment score is caused by regional biases</p>

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<p>this is dumb. There aren't any schools in the south, midwest, or west that are BETTER than the top-10 northeast schools...which top-10 school would you have removed to make way for...Emory!??! Vandy!?!? Yes, Cornell is comparable to those two schools, but everybody knows there is no real difference between a school ranked 15 and a school ranked 20.</p>

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<p>to JyankeesSS2: your name says it all</p>

<p>to gomester: Bingo!</p>

<p>IMO, Peer Assessment is heavily influenced by regional bias. When you look at the actual numbers given for the Peer Assessment, the results reflect the clubbiness of the academic world. If a school or its professors aren't well known or high profile in The Club, then your marks can only go so high and certainly not higher than one's friends in The Club. Thus, places that are far away or not frequently visited (Houston-Rice, Atlanta-Emory, Nashville-Vanderbilt, South Bend-Notre Dame) by the academic elites receive inferior marks. The status quo supports and protects the elite status of the northeastern schools while throwing crumbs to these "regional" schools (said with condescending emphasis on regional as opposed to national, all school data notwithstanding). My contention is that this conclusion is outdated in a national and global economy that has become, in the word of Tom Friedman, "flat." The Northeast's monopoly on the media perpetuates the idea that the Ivy is better, but in today's world of distributed information and empowerment of the individual, it is a false assumption that the best and brightest would be so concentrated in a handful of schools in the Northeast.</p>

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<p>Let's start with the objective factors which, as I recall, is every factor except the peer assessment. In order to demonstrate bias, one would have to demonstrate that the objective factors are skewed towards the NE. I think that would be a very high hurdle. So, I believe hawkette is talking about regional bias in peer assessment.</p>

<p>I don't know that there's NO regional bias, but I believe hawkette overstates it even if it does exist. Peer assessment appears to me to be very closely tied to the research reputation the the school/faculty in question. Large, public research universities tend to do very well on peer assessment (Berkeley, Michigan, etc.). But they often get hammered on the objective criteria.</p>

<p>If one looks at the peer assessment scores, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, and MIT all get 4.9s. I have no problem with those ratings. In fact, I have to wonder who on earth didn't give these schools 5s (distinguished) ratings. CalTech, Chicago, and Berkeley get 4.7s. All those are outside the NE. So, of the top 8 schools, four are outside the NE. And I would have to say that the numbers correspond roughly to research reputation.</p>

<p>Columbia, Cornell, and Johns Hopkins get 4.6s. Penn, Duke, and Michigan get 4.5s. Eyeballing those schools, I'd say that only Duke seems a bit odd. I would say that Duke's research reputation, while very good, doesn't quite match that of Penn and Michigan. Next, we have Darthmouth, Northwestern, and Brown at 4.4. This puts a bit of a crimp in my hypothesis. I wouldn't say that Dartmouth and Brown are well-known for their research, though the faculties are quite distinguished. Virginia and UCLA come in at 4.3. That seems about right. </p>

<p>Now, let's take a look at the lower peer assessment rating in the top 25.</p>

<p>WUSTL (4.1), Rice (4.1), Emory (4.0), Vanderbilt (4.1), Notre Dame (3.9), and Georgetown (4.1) are better known, perhaps, for teaching than for research. It's not that they do NO research, but just not as much or of as high quality as most of the other schools with higher peer evaluations. Georgetown and Notre Dame, for instance, are Jesuit schools, so it's no wonder they put a great deal of emphasis on teaching. </p>

<p>So, of all the schools mentioned, the only ones that seem slightly out of whack to my eye (and remember, it's just MY eye), are Duke, Brown, and Darthmouth. Of those, two are in the NE. </p>

<p>So, there might be a bit of bias. It's impossible to tell for sure. But one would expect Tufts to get a much higher peer assessment than its 3.7 if that were the case, wouldn't one?</p>

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<p>"hus, places that are far away or not frequently visited (Houston-Rice, Atlanta-Emory, Nashville-Vanderbilt, South Bend-Notre Dame"</p>

<p>yes, bow to the vacation wonderlands of Ithaca, NY, Hanover, NH, and Princeton, NJ. They're great places, but i'm pretty sure houston, atlanta, and nashville are a little more busy with incomming visitors. </p>

<p>I agree that there is a heavy correlation between the northeast schools and those considered to be elite. But correlation does not equal causation, stats 101</p>

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<p>I second gomestar. The northeast simply has more academically superior schools (although the West, Midwest, and South are quickly nipping at its heels).</p>

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<p>gomestar
Last I checked Cornell and the others are located in the Northeast and are highly visible as members of the Ivy League. Quick-can you even name what league Vanderbilt and Notre Dame compete in? Not that hard, right, as Notre Dame is always in the press and Vanderbilt less so, but still from time to time. But what league are Rice and Emory in? Not as simple and surely not as prominently displayed as any of the Ivy schools. My point is that, from your vantage point in Ithaca, you are so deep in the belly of the beast you don't even see how the East Coast-media promoted Ivy League dominates your perception. </p>

<p>As for actual scores, probably the only school that Cornell and Brown deserve to be ranked ahead is Vanderbilt although I question the sharp difference in Peer Assessment (4.6 and 4.4 vs 4.1) and also point out Vandy's strength in providing resources to support its faculty and the size and quality of its academic offerings. </p>

<p>Peer Assessment Score (25% of score)
Cornell: 4.6
Brown: 4.4
Rice: 4.1
Emory: 4.0
Vanderbilt: 4.1
Notre Dame: 3.9</p>

<p>The spread on the scores looks awfully wide for schools that are so closely ranked to one another. Is Cornell faculty reputation really 18% better than Notre Dame??</p>

<p>Graduation and Retention Rank (20% of score)
Cornell: 15
Brown: 3
Rice: 15
Emory: 25
Vanderbilt: 30
Notre Dame: 3</p>

<p>I'm not sure why this factor deserves 20% of the USNWR score as the differences in graduation rate range from 95% at Brown to 88% at Vanderbilt, both excellent scores. </p>

<p>Faculty Resources Rank (20% of score)
Cornell: 11
Brown: 18
Rice: 15
Emory: 12
Vanderbilt: 10
Notre Dame: 23</p>

<p>Some might argue that this is the most important score as this shows the commitment and quality control of the school towards its teaching activities. Surprisingly for this group of schools, Vanderbilt makes the largest effort at giving its students the greatest amount of attention. Meanwhile, Emory and Rice also make a larger effort than Brown. </p>

<p>Student Selectivity Rank (15% of score)
Cornell: 22 (1290-1480)
Brown: 10 (1330-1540)
Rice: 11 (1330-1540)
Emory: 15 (1300-1470)
Vanderbilt: 26 (1280-1460)
Notre Dame: 17 (1290-1470)</p>

<p>The selectivity scores of the Ivy schools is impressive, but then so are all of these schools (particularly Rice) and I suspect we would agree that these differences are pretty negligible. </p>

<p>Financial Resources Rank (10% of score)
Cornell: 18
Brown: 27
Rice: 24
Emory: 16
Vanderbilt: 15
Notre Dame: 39</p>

<p>Again, Vanderbilt makes the largest effort to spend money on the education of its students. </p>

<p>Graduation Rate Performance (5% of score)
Cornell: +2
Brown: +2
Rice: -4
Emory: -4
Vanderbilt: +3
Notre Dame: +5 </p>

<p>Alumni Giving Rate Rank (5% of score)
Cornell: 16
Brown: 10
Rice: 13
Emory: 15
Vanderbilt: 30
Notre Dame: 3</p>

<p>Very strong showing by Notre Dame and comparatively weak showing by Vanderbilt.</p>

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<p>hawkette:</p>

<p>What the @$%$ is your point? If you're arguing that the objective factors in the US News rating are slanted towards the Northeast schools, you've got a heckuva row to hoe there to prove it. And you have to go even farther if you want to prove intent.</p>

<p>The issue with weightings is completely off the point unless you can tie those weightings to bias. Unless you tie them to bias, you just have another argument over US News' methodology.</p>

<p>The only point I think you have a prayer of adequately supporting is the issue of whether or not the subjective peer assessment rating is biased. That's where you should be devoting your efforts.</p>

<p>Now, the peer assessment scores you've posted seem about right to me. I would say that the research reputations of the faculty at Vandy and Notre Dame are well below those of the faculty at Cornell. I don't think it's even close. Brown is a bit iffier.</p>

<p>There's something else you'll need to explain. If there is a measurable Northeast bias, why is Tufts' peer assessment so low (3.7)?</p>

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<p>the northeast is simply more populated</p>

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<p>Let's not forget that in 1999, Caltech was actually ranked #1 in USnews. So if USNews was really so biased in favor of the Northeast, then why would they ever allow a thing like that to happen? </p>

<p>Furthermore, take a gander at the USNews Graduate edition and notice all of the top-ranked programs that are not in the NorthEast. As a case in point, I like the UCBerkeley Haas School of Business, but even I have trouble believing that it really is the #7 business school in the country. If USNews was really biased in favor of the Northeast, wouldn't it be biased in ALL of its rankings? Why would it only be biased in its undergraduate ranking?</p>

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<p>no one has yet mentioned that most of the northeastern schools are older than those in other parts of the country. the longer a school has been established, the more opportunity it has had for recognition/growth.</p>

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<p>The schools in the Northeast are just better...anyways, Cal Tech, Stanford, Duke, and Chicago are all in the top 10...as they should be, and that is 40% of the top 10...maybe the bias isn't that bad afterall</p>

<p>Saying there's a bias towards the Northeast is synonymous with saying there is a bias towards older Universities as well, and it shouldn't be suprise that HYP are the top 3.</p>

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<p>hawkette, I'm from Ohio. It just isn't that difficult to realize that schools in the top-10 are somewhat better than Emory, Vandy, or Notre Dame. The schools who deserve to be there (Duke, Chicago, Stanford, Caltech) are there. 4 out of 11 schools is NOT that bad a ratio when one looks at this. Honestly, none of the schools you listed is more deserving than those already in the top 10, and as I said, everybody realizes that a difference of a few numbers in ranking means almost nothing anyway. Tarhunt basically killed your idea of the peer assessment bias. Just give it up.</p>

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<p>My point is that the Peer Assessment, the subjective aspect of the USNWR is slanted in favor of the status quo, ie, the traditional bastions of power and prestige, nearly all of which are located in the Northeast. I went back to the rankings methodology and tried to get a better understanding of the impact of the Peer Assessment (25%) on the scores that each school receives. I then considered just the factors that students encounter when they are actually at a school, specifically the Faculty Resources rank, the Selectivity rank, and the Financial Resources rank as these speak specifically to the objective statistics tied to faculty and student strength and institutional commitment to support these. </p>

<p>First, on the objective data that I presented earlier and which is taken directly from USNWR, the scores are as follows if you take out the Peer Assessment and the Graduation Rate Performance (worth 5% and which I don’t know how to score or rank):</p>

<p>Cornell: 10.30 ((20%<em>Graduation & Retention rank of 15)+(20%</em>Faculty Resources rank of 11)+(15%<em>Student Selectivity rank of 22)+(10%</em>Financial Resources rank of 18)+(5%*Alumni Giving rank of 16))
Brown: 8.40
Rice: 10.05
Emory: 11.25
Vanderbilt: 13.40
Notre Dame: 11.65</p>

<p>The Ivies continue to score impressively, but Rice does move ahead of Cornell. I can only imagine what Rice’s national reputation would be if it were located in the Northeast. </p>

<p>IMO, the fairest evaluation of the quality of the undergraduate experience (strong commitment on the part of the school to have a strong faculty in a small teaching environment, an intelligent student body, and a willingness to spend money to support those students) is not reflected in the rankings. Thus, scoring just the Faculty Resources, Selectivity, and Financial Resources ranks, you get the following scores:</p>

<p>Cornell: 9.73
Brown: 10.40
Rice: 9.40
Emory: 8.33
Vanderbilt: 9.87
Notre Dame: 14.93</p>

<p>Emory and Rice now rank ahead of both Cornell and Brown and Vanderbilt moves ahead of Brown. </p>

<p>Undoubtedly, my conclusions will be attacked as I have removed ranking criteria that favor the Ivy schools. Nonetheless, on perhaps the most important criteria for undergraduate students, some of the schools out in Flyover Country do a better job at supporting and educating their students than their more celebrated Ivy counterparts. This is definitely not the accepted wisdom on CC nor in the world at large.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
My point is that the Peer Assessment, the subjective aspect of the USNWR is slanted in favor of the status quo

[/quote]
Now you're getting somewhere ... peer assessment is probably biased somewhat to the status quo ... and I'd expect any subjective human assessment to have a time lag in it's movement. Your Rice - Cornell example is pretty good ... without looking I'd guess while Rice is still ranked below Cornell in it's peer asseessment but in addition over the last 10 years or so it has moved up significantly while Cornell has been essentially stagnant. Is that East Coast bias or a time lag in assessments catching up? </p>

<p>The second issue is the pure number of schools. Throughout the Midwest, Rockies, and the West the State schools are a much bigger deal and there are many-many less private schools. If you listed your top 100 schools in the country (research Us and LACs) the list would be heavily biased towards the east coast to start with ... then getting a peer assessment list that is heavily weighted towards the east coast is not then unexcpected.</p>

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<p>"over the last 10 years or so it has moved up significantly while Cornell has been essentially stagnant."</p>

<p>if rice keeps moving up, they will see how it becomes exceedingly difficult to move up when you're in the top 15 or so ... there's just little wiggle room, especially compared to school that are ranked 20-30 - here, it's much easier to move up a few spots compared to the top 10 or so. In the last 2 or 3 years Cornell has moved up a spot each year ... much tougher to do in the top 12 or 13 than where rice has been.</p>

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<p>hawkette:</p>

<p>If your argument is that the peer assessment has a Northeast bias, you must prove THAT. If you feel there should be no peer assessment in the US News rankings, you must make THAT point. If you feel that US News has deliberately stacked the deck against schools outside the NE, you must prove THAT. All this tangential thrashing around you're doing is pointless and wasteful.</p>

<p>Your central thesis, I think (it's been so badly supported that I'm not really sure WHAT your central thesis might be), is that the PEER ASSESSMENTS are biased in favor of Northeast schools. In order to make your point, you're going to need to come up with some relevant objective criteria and compare that to subjective rankings to show (or not show) a discrepancy.</p>

<p>I have already made the point that, if there's a bias, it very well may be toward the research reputation of the faculty. You have not responded. So be it. Still, I believe my probability of being correct is higher than yours at this point ABSENT some actual, RELEVANT data on your part.</p>

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<p>I'm not a big fan of the Northeast, but, if anything, there seems to be a bias IN FAVOR of the Southern schools. Is it just me, or do Duke, Vanderbilt, Wake, Emory, and UNC all seem to be ranked a bit high? Some people here (not me) consider Missouri to be somewhat of a Southern state, so WashU could be added to the list.</p>

<p>People in probably every part of the country are a little bit biased towards their own region. And having lived all over the country, I'd guess that the most biased would be 1. Northeast 2. South 3. West 4. Midwest.</p>