USNWR Slanted in favor of the Northeast

College Search & Selection
41

<p>"East Coast" bias is just a fact of life (at least for now).</p>

<ul>
<li>NYC is still the world's most visible business capitol.</li>
<li>Washington D.C. remains the world's most powerful, most important political capitol.</li>
<li>The most influential media firms are still largely based on the East coast (e.g. NYT, Wall St. J., Time Warner, etc.)</li>
</ul>

<p>Take sports for example: sports talkshows (ESPN, etc.) still largely center around east coast teams (Yankees/Red Sox in baseball, the NFC East (e.g. Redskins, Cowboys, Eagles, Giants) dominates most other divisions (at least on a relative basis AND on a national level vs. other divisions) even though the NFC East hasn't produced a Super Bowl winner in a full decade ('96) - and the ultimate example of this East Coast sports media bias is none other than the hapless NY Knicks - this sorry franchise is probably a decade (or two) away from even contending in the East, but you'd never know that from the constant stories featured about the Madison Garden team.)</p>

<p>East coast bias is just that - a bias that is neither fair nor "deserved". It's just a fact of life... for now... the Internet has done a lot to level this playing field and I suspect that this bias will fade over time.</p>

42

<p>It's "capital."</p>

43

<p>i stand corrected (at least for the business capital)... political capitol, however, still stands...</p>

44

<p>Just had to try to keep some dignity, didn't you? :) But then I must ask you, why add the adjective "political"? Are there other kinds of "capitols"? If that's the case, then why isn't "business capitol" also correct?</p>

45

<p>KK, if you can spell "Northeastern" as "Northwestern," prestige shouldn't have his poetic license revoked for capital/capitol. Though I'm pretty sure in all cases it should be "capital." But as Dan Quayle would say, it's all a small potatoe.</p>

46

<p>The building that houses Congress is referred to as the "Capitol." It may also be used to refer to buildings housing state legislatures. Washington DC is the "Capital" of the US. Madison is the "Capital" of Wisconsin. Political "capital" is something that the current administration has lost.</p>

47

<p>no, Washington D.C. HAS the world's most powerful capitol (the building), but it IS a capital. </p>

<p>Capitol is a building
Capital is a place</p>

48

<p>and that's the principle of that principal....</p>

49

<p>jeez, talk about microanalyzing a word </p>

<p>btw, i guess we don't have any die hard sports fans here - i was waiting for the protests about that part of my post more than anything else.</p>

50

<p>well...I am a Yankees fan so I had no problems with it</p>

51

<p>the_prestige,</p>

<p>I'll bite on your sports analogies by saying that your examples support my argument that the media hype of the Northeast overrates the local talent and underrates the others, particularly those located in the Midwest and the South. All of the media hype in the world didn't give the favored Yankees or the BoSox a baseball title (won by St. Louis of the Midwestern), the favored Patriots or Eagles a football title (won by Pittsburgh, which is sort of Midwestern), and the (pretty crappy) Knicks/Celtics/76ers a basketball title (won by Miami, which is sort of Southern). On the college level, (sort of Southern) Florida wins the crown in basketball and (Southern) Texas wins the football. </p>

<p>Given the hype and the prestige awarded automatically to all of the Ivy League schools, I suspect that if there were a playoff system for academics, the Midwestern and Southern schools would be seeded consistently below the Northeastern elites....and then once the games began, these less "prestigious" schools would more than hold their own, particularly against the schools outside of HYPSM. True, it's only my opinion, but there does seem to be a pattern of the media exaggerating the strength of the northeasterners.</p>

52

<p>hawkette,</p>

<p>i'd agree, on balance with your post... up to a point.</p>

<p>some of the East Coast bias or "hype" as you put it is just that (in the case where we fully agree - for example, the Knicks/Celtics/76ers - franchises which have been living richly off their glory days gone by) BUT in other cases, the "HYP" is justified.</p>

<p>now - and here is where i have issues - i'm not sure which East Coast schools would exactly fit the "Knicks" model/type (this is where the sports analogy falls short given that the only thing we have to go by in terms of a "championship" vis a vis schools is the rather dubious and much maligned USNWR rankings)... </p>

<p>Are you suggesting that every highly ranked East Coast school outside of HYP is overrated? In which case I'd fully disagree. For instance, IMO every Ivy (save perhaps Cornell) easily makes a very strong case as a "Top 10" school. Outside of the Ivies (according to your regional distinction) we are really only talking about MIT... which I think we can all agree is nothing short of a Top 5 school by all accounts...</p>

53

<p>Come to think of it, even though I give Cornell a hard time, it still does have the added advantage of being an Ivy League school - so that's perhaps where you and I agree.</p>

<p>In other words, I think it's fair to say that on paper (and in reality) many students from Cornell are likely on par with many students from elite schools based outside the East (schools that may not enjoy the same level of name recognition / prestige / "hype").. but let's think about that for a moment. Doesn't that extra level of "hype" have at least a little value (if not a lot)? Frankly, I'd prefer going to Cornell over the very large majority of other elite non-East schools (vs., say, a Vanderbilt or a Rice or a WUSTL - with the exception of a very small handful of schools including Stanford, Caltech and maybe Duke but really that's about it).</p>

<p>Which all comes back to my original post on this thread - i.e. about East Coast bias - it's just a fact of life... perhaps unfair, perhaps unjustified in certain cases, but it exists nonetheless.</p>

54

<p>ok hawkette, so after reading this thread and hearing counter-opinions, how would you rank the top 10, or even the top 20? which northeastern schools would you demote?</p>

55

<p>My beef is not with the very top tier of the Ivy League and I have tried to make this distinction in my earlier posts exempting HYPSM. However, IMO after this top group, I think that the next fifteen schools are very hard to pick among. Some have extremely strong specialty reputations, eg, CalTech for engineering, but do they have enough broad-based academic and curriculum strength to justify their lofty ranking? (While I have the greatest respect for Caltech, I don’t believe that its program has the breadth to justify its ranking.) And some have extremely strong graduate programs which boosts their reputation among academics (and thus enhances their Peer Assessment scores), but again does this inordinately boost the undergraduate school reputation? Yet among the fifteen schools ranked 6-20, the top half of this group seems dominated year in and year out by the same mostly northeastern schools (Penn, Dartmouth, Columbia, Cornell, Brown, and oh yeah, Duke and occasionally Chicago). The Peer Assessments of these schools are decidedly higher than the Midwestern/Southern group of schools that I have referred to (Northwestern, Rice, Emory, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame). This PA handicap for the Midwestern/Southern schools has clearly contributed to the fact that none of these schools have been ranked in the top 10 in any of the last nine years and, with the exception of Northwestern, have rarely made the top 15 in this time period. This is the status quo that I am challenging as IMO these Midwestern/Southern schools are under appreciated while the second tier of the Ivies is overrated. The lack of rankings movement suggests that the USNWR editors have a pre-ordained ranking that is not reflective of the true quality of these schools, particularly at the undergraduate level and how the various schools go about educating their students. To me, this stagnation also connotes a glass ceiling for these very strong schools in Flyover Country and a bias in favor of those with more media visibility and greater historical prestige. </p>

<p>For Huskem,
I will give your request a try (and I suspect that I will live to regret it :) )</p>

<p>1-5: HYPSM
6-10 tier: Duke, Dartmouth, Rice, Columbia, Chicago (?-too high)
11-15 tier: Penn, WashU, Northwestern, CalTech (lower because of narrow curriculum), Emory (?-too high)
16-20 tier: Brown, Vanderbilt, Cornell, Notre Dame, Johns Hopkins (lower because of narrow curriculum)</p>

<p>I think that this would be a very legitimate ranking-I also like the regional balance. :) :)</p>

56

<p>^^^^</p>

<p>good for you and your rankings, though I'm pretty sure most educated people would probably disagree a bit. It seems like you're just sticking in schools like emory, vanderbilt, WUSL way up there just to have a ranking that throws in these southern schools at the top. Unfortunately, I dont think any of them stack up to Brown and Cornell - unless you have the grad placement statistics and program ranks to prove it. Please, do provide....</p>

57

<p>I chose Vandy over Cornell. At a certain point, people should chose on social fit and what they want out of their college expierence.</p>

58

<p>
[quote]
The Peer Assessments of these schools are decidedly higher than the Midwestern/Southern group of schools that I have referred to (Northwestern, Rice, Emory, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It couldn't possibly be that Penn, Dartmouth, Columbia, Cornell, Brown, Duke and Chicago are just better than NW, Rice, Emory, VB, ND?</p>

<p>Certainly there are other metrics besides the Peer Assessment that the 1st grouping of schools (by and large) are just better than that 2nd grouping:</p>

<p>Here are the Top 10 Most Selective schools according to USNWR (lowest acceptance rates):</p>

<p>Rank School Acceptance rate
1) Harvard University (MA) 9%
2) Yale University (CT) 10%
3) Princeton University (NJ) 11%
4) Stanford University (CA) 12%
5) Columbia University (NY) 13%
6) Massachusetts Inst. of Technology 14%
7) Brown University (RI) 15%
8) Dartmouth College (NH) 17%
9) Washington University in St. Louis 19%
10) California Institute of Technology 20%</p>

<p>(* from the above list - aside from Stanford/Caltech, which aren't schools in question - only WUSTL makes this list)</p>

<p>Look at Highest Graduation rate (which is an important metric as to school resources that support each student as well as a successful selection process - i.e. a well chosen student body - both in terms of motivation and talent):</p>

<p>Highest Graduation Rates:
National Universities
School Graduation rate
1) Harvard University (MA) 98%
2) Princeton University (NJ) 97%
3) Yale University (CT) 96%
4) Brown University (RI) 95%
5) University of Notre Dame (IN) 95%
6) Columbia University (NY) 94%
7) Massachusetts Inst. of Technology 94%
8) Stanford University (CA) 94%
9) University of Pennsylvania 94%
10) Dartmouth College (NH) 93%</p>

<p>(* again, out of the above list only ND manages a Top 10 spot).</p>

<p>So as a collective group it seems that Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia, Penn, Duke (and to a lesser extent Cornell - which I have already stated is the weaker link) is just flat out BETTER than Emory, Rice, WUSTL, NW, ND, etc... and this doesn't even get into other rankings such as the Revealed Preferences Ranking and the Wall Street Journal Best Feeder Colleges Ranking which also support the above.</p>

<p>So, in the end, there is bias which is unfounded, and then there is bias which is well merited:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=228347%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=228347&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

59

<p>Prestige, that has to be one of the weakest arguments I've seen in a long time. I also like how you left schools out on both lists... especially NU, Duke, UVA, and Georgetown out of the second (all have 93% grad rate just like Dartmouth).</p>

60

<p>the truth hurts, huh?</p>