Utter Frustration

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
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<p>Money does play into an environment but not to the extent that you are claiming. Are you essentially saying that those with money are automatically expected to have good environments and therefore be "smarter" and have better credentials and those without money would be assumed to have "lower credentials." Just looking around at the kids in my school I can see that thats not true. Since were on a college forum, look at the amount of brilliant kids who come from poor families. You're right, it does play into the environment, but not to the extent that many people are playing it out to be. And where do you draw the line between poor and negative environment and rich and positive environment? At what income can you make that distinction? Why is money even a factor in the process? Colleges try to take money out of the equation by distancing their financial aid office yet applicants find a way to put finances back into the application. </p>

<p>And I haven't even taken into account how unfair the tuition is either. Baron has a good point. People have the attitude, "oh that family has money they can pay for that." Earning money takes, HARD WORK, and it is sad that middle class family have to pay ridiculous sums of money from their pocket while poorer people sometimes pay virtually nothing. College tuition is a significant percentage of middle class families incomes. 160-180 thousand dollars over four years is enough to buckle most if not all middle class knees. Shouldn't tuition be graduated? I'm glad Harvard is taking a step in that direction. But we all know that very few schools have instituted that policy.</p>

<p>Baron is also right in that this argument shouldn't continue. I'm really surprise d with the amount of people in support of affirmative action. I always wondered why it was so dominant in colleges, but now I realize its because of the people. I just don't see why the playing field can be leveled. You all know affirmative action is something that significantly increases admissions odds. In fact many list it as a hook. I just don't see how race, financial status, etc. should give advantages to some applicants and disadvantages to others. Everybody works hard and everybody is deserving. Who has the right to say that one person out of a group of two similar people with different backgrounds is more deserving than the other?</p>

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<p>"Why is money even a factor in the process? Colleges try to take money out of the equation by distancing their financial aid office yet applicants find a way to put finances back into the application."</p>

<p>Not me.</p>

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<p>Nick, I don't even know why I'm arguing with you. I'm referring to those who use their background as leverage. I know many people who do this and this is what upsets me.</p>

<p>I'm sorry for the harshness of the words and I'm not trying to underplay your achievements.</p>

<p>Nick, the sad thing about this admissions process is that I did everything that you did. I asked my teachers for my Penn recommendations the first week of school. I spent almost 2 months perfecting my essays. To make sure I knew what Penn was about, I went for an overnight visit. I know my numbers are fine. But I got deferred. I'm bemoaning those people who used the system and took advantage of their situation. Not people like you Nick.</p>

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<p>I don't want to get involved in this, even though it is quite interesting. But I will say this much:</p>

<p>I know from personal experience that it is possible to score very high on the SATs with three prep books, one box of notecards, and 200 sheets of paper. Total cost? $65 if you buy everything new</p>

45

<p>"I mean the university is looking for say somebody who plays some kind of unique instrument, or some kind of athlete. If these kinds of things make one qualified for a school like Penn and not 12 years of hard work and dedication to go as far as you can in academics while involving yourself in numerous "average" activities, don't you think that makes the process unfair?"</p>

<p>Yo Linkin, since when was playing an instrument or sport not "hard work and dedication"? You think we bring a TV and couch to orchestra rehearsals and track practices? Oh, how about pillows and cups of tea? Sitting in front of a desk at 2 AM reading Princeton Review Physics isn't the only kind of hard work in the world. After an afternoon/evening of chamber music rehearsal and football practice, lets see you even try to do an hour of homework without dozing off.</p>

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<p><em>refills popcorn</em></p>

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<p>You're right Girls. I play an instrument too. I know its hard work. But with college admissions today it seems like hard work in academics is ignored while following passions in other things is a big plus.</p>

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<p>Wow a lot of craptossing going on in this thread.</p>

<p>Money does not buy you intelligence. It buys you resources. Those who are intelligent but without the resources may not be able to show as much bang on paper as those who have the resources and are also intelligent enough to utilize them fully. And that's what it really comes down to. You, as an applicant, are evaluated in a relativistic sense. Given your background and situational attributes, how well have you used the resources available to you and how hard have you worked and what do you have to show for it?</p>

<p>There are all sorts of activities that people do that involve lots of hard work. People in band get up fsck-early in the morning or stay after school for hours practicing, people in sports are exhausted with physical demands and time constraints, those with huge financial concerns have the obvious hurdles to take care of, and so forth. I feel that Penn tries to look at how well an applicant has pushed the limits and overcome obstacles... and then tries to evaluate how well that person would fit in at Penn.</p>

<p>Linkin, I feel like you're discrediting the hard work and determination that goes into activities others do that you may not be personally involved in. People who are good at certain sports or certain instruments have been doing it for an incredibly long time on top of maintaining good academics and achieving decent scores. </p>

<p>Money also does play a huge factor in things, both in high school and college. In high school I couldn't afford transportation because there was no public transport and gas was too expensive for me, and the clubs and activities of my school were already expensive enough. Also I had to pay for my own food and lab fees, and of course SAT tutoring was out of the question. I had to work jobs as well -- something not every kid does in high school because they have finances taken care of for them so they can focus on academics and/or sports.</p>

<p>I mean, everyone's situation is different. Money has quite a bit of influence when it comes to resources, and if you lack the money, it sure as hell makes it hard to get the resources to show what you're made of, which is why people from harsher backgrounds tend to be looked at more favorably if they're able to reach achievements comparable to achievements of those who have more resources available to them.</p>

<p>Also, linkin, having passion for something is important. It gives you character and adds more diversity to Penn. I can speak as a Penn student that the student body here is very diversified when it comes to passion. You have piano players, drummers, freerunners, actors, programmers, painters, artists, mechanics, knitters, jugglers, horseback riders, wannabe-execs, marchers, singers, composers, football/soccer/basketball/etc players, skaters, designers, models... I mean the list just goes on and on. Having a passion sets you apart. Those here who have no passion for anything... are honestly quite boring. If your only skill is studying and test-taking, it isn't going to make you stand out in admissions. Nearly everyone at Penn was good at academics in high school, but they also have something else to offer. It's nice to be hanging out with people and suddenly discover that one of your friends has this crazy skill that nobody knew about, haha. Don't undercut the passion factor because I feel it really says a lot about a person.</p>

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<p>How can they "seem to" ignore hard work in academics if GPA and SATs are the most important factors??? Unless your grandfather is Warren Buffet, or something like that. It takes work to get straight A's, for most people.</p>

<p>Oh, and Viva I love how you call me the dick, yet you started making it personal with your comments on how you hope Penn doesn't weigh my essays and SAT Writing section very much.... Hmmm, sounds like your the dick to me. I'm just giving you the truth, and sometimes it hurts man. Obviously you not getting in was the end of the world, quite sad to say the least.</p>

50

<p>NickBarr....I understand that you put your heart and soul into your application but I am still unsure how you compensated for a 1310 SATI and a 550 SAT II...there are probably hundreds of kids like you who have set their life on Penn but I feel like you are failing to include some kind of hook in this case...are you legacy or URM, or a recruited athlete....if not Id love to read your essay if you are willing to share it b/c it must be a truthfully amazing piece....and honestly I have lost track of who is dissing who but NickBarr you have no right to point fingers after comments like this....</p>

<p>NickBarr
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Threads: 3
Posts: 50
At least we're on a level playing field now, especially with Penn's new financial aid policy. All the rich *******s can look forward to seeing us poor kids moving in next fall."</p>

<p>......was it really neccessary to use those asterisks?</p>

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<p>If you want the full ins and outs of my application and what I did and didn't put on it, get in touch with me and I'll fill you in. I already talked about it with Linkin and I'll tell you the same things I told him. I know for a fact that I got in because of my own accomplishments and effort and nobody is going to undermine that by trying to imply that it was because of some reason which is beyond my or anyone's control.</p>

<p>Also, taking other people's quotes out of context is a real douche-y thing to do.</p>

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<p>"Nearly everyone at Penn was good at academics in high school, but they also have something else to offer."</p>

<p>I fully agree. The ones that made it had that extra instrument/sport/hobby on top of "hard work in academics." Sure, they might've gotten 100 points lower than you on the SAT or their GPA might've been .1 lower, but that's not to say they didn't work hard in their classes. Those miniscule differences don't and shouldn't really matter especially since they poured their heart and soul into their EC's. But if they weren't academically superior in the first place, I'm pretty sure Penn wouldn't have accepted them unless they were of Yo-Yo Ma's caliber, which I assure not a lot of people are.</p>

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<p>I'm not discrediting anyones hard work. Hard work comes in many forms. You're right to say that passion for a singular something does add to the diversity. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be passionate or things of that sort. What my whole argument has been is that when people use that one thing and ride on it to get into where they want to go (URM, financial situation, athletics, etc.) and basically take advantage of their situation. That is what gets to me. </p>

<p>I was talking to Nick the other night. His situation is one that I truly admire. He comes from a rough background and has many hooks, but he didn't overplay them if he mentioned them at all. In one instance he did not put something on his application which would have even furthered his chances as a hook. Nick got in on his own because of his passion for Penn and his refusal to take no for an answer. </p>

<p>I'm referring to the multitude of kids out there who get into these schools with some hook and without the academics to back it up. There are plenty of those kids. Penn is essentially a school. I understand they're building a community but in some instances academic quality is seriously being sacrificed.</p>

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<p>This is a really tough time for a lot of us. Tensions are running high. Myself included. I really don't think all the arguing, fighting, and name calling represents the people on this forum.</p>

<p>I'm sorry if I ****ed anyone off or offended anyone. I seriously doubt any of the harsh things said on this forum by myself and other people were meant with ill will.</p>

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<p>Since when has p.i.s.s.ed off been a bad word?</p>

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<p>Yes, I am sorry as well if I p.i.s.s.e.d anyone off in this forum... This is a tough time as linkin said, and once again I am sorry if I p'ed you off.</p>

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<p>Can you show me plenty of these kids linkin?</p>

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<p>Thank goodness I'm not applying to Penn.
All you people are psychopaths.</p>

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<p>No Eloquence. I can't off the top of my head. But no one can deny that it happens. </p>

<p>Eloquence this isn't personal. I've seen your stuff on the decisions thread. You made your background overly clear. Dosen't mean you're not qualified, but you can't deny that you brought it up. I dunno what you did on your application. The point is that if those situations were brought up on the application, it does help chances.</p>

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<p>Actually I didn't write about it in my essays or anything, but what I did do is write about it to my teachers so they could write their recommendations with more insight about me, so blame it on the rec.s if anything.</p>