Declining demographics in the Midwest are also driving UW’s move to more merit aid. As the number of in-state college-aged kids declines, schools like UW will have to compete more aggressively to capture the same quality student they are used to. While an excellent school, UW still has more of a region appeal than national appeal. Look for them to try and change that.
Still hiring top people too
@Zinhead Can you provide backup info on your conclusions about UIUC COE admissions and denial of admission for IS students “in favor of foreign students”?
In 2012, UIUC has 1482 eng grads and 293 were NRA (19.77%)
In 2015, UIUC had 2012 eng grads and 456 were NRA (22.6%)
In 2015, Purdue had 1626 eng grads and 468 were NRA (28.8%)
In 2015, UMich had 1463 eng grads and 243 were NRA (16.6%)
In 2015, IowaSt had 1155 eng grads and 176 were NRA (15.23%)
In 2015 UMinn had 905 eng grads and 168 were NRA (18.6%)
From the News-Gazette story regarding the UIUC COE :
"“We’re working hard to get a higher fraction of Illinois residents,” he said, projecting the percentage will be 55 percent to 60 percent.
He said that percentage may seem small but the number of Illinois residents in the college is "as high as it's ever been." The college expanded enrollment in recent years by accepting more out-of-state and international students. In particular, it's seen increasing demand from students in California, where the university system doesn't have enough seats to satisfy demand, Pitts said."
So, 530 (>35%) more eng grads at UIUC over that time and 163 more NRA (30.7%) If more NRA helped fund enrollment expansion for RA (and IS students) I do not have an issue. Even with the expansion of enrollment, the selectivity of UIUC COE admissions has only continued to rise, so it would be unlikely that less “worthy” NRA or OOS students are being admitted as the expense of IS students with better academic backgrounds.
How many slots are “too many”? what are your ideal percentages?
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I think anecdotal stories about UIUC CS/Eng admissions and denial of IS students with high ACT scores need to be analyzed with more information. It takes more than just a high ACT score and has been discussed in depth in other threads regarding the additional need for relevant CS experience, also.
“Declining demographics in the Midwest are also driving UW’s move to more merit aid.”
I think that this will hurt second and third tier schools a lot more than it will hurt Wisconsin or any of the B1G schools.Wisconsin may have more of a regional pull, but their ability to attract OOS students has been improving and will continue to improve.
@IlliniDad18 UIUC provides a lot of enrollment info…
Enrollment in the COE
2015: 7,551 (Illinois=4,226, Non-Illinois=3325 ;44%)
2006: 5,010 (Illinois=3,910, Non-Illinois=1,100 ;22%)
So the overall number of in-state students has slightly increased, while the size of the undergraduate class has increased 50% (got to love that OOS engineering tuition revenue).
Comparing in-state undergraduate enrollment by major:
2015 vs 2006
Computer Science, 474 vs 446
Mechanical Eng, 605 vs 729
Computer Eng, 517 vs 348
Electrical Eng, 509 vs 487
(all of the above majors, except ME have more Non-Illinois undergrads than Illinois undergrads)
Even with the 50% increase in COE enrollment, in-state enrollment hasn’t increase much by major, and in some cases it’s decreased (as in the largest engineering program, Mechanical).
On top of this, the increase in Non-Illinois enrollment has significantly increase the entrance requirements for the COE (and UIUC in general).
The State of Illinois is probably only behind New Jersey in exporting college students, and one of the issues why is that UIUC is the only top level research university in the state. The rest of the state schools, UIC, ISU, Northern, Southern, and Western are all pretty indistinguishable from each other academically, and serious students rarely choose them.
See the following article regarding enrollment trends at non-UIUC colleges in state:
For students who don’t get into to UIUC, out of state schools like MSU, UW, Purdue, Indiana, Missouri, Iowa, ISU, and Minnesota are preferred alternatives to staying in state. These are all very expensive for OOS, but since Illinois in-state tuition is among the highest in the country, many families find themselves forced to pay OOS rates because Illinois has not funded a decent in-state backup to UIUC.
When you couple few good in-state alternatives and high in-state tuition with the fact that UIUC has tried to solve its budget woes by importing NRA’s, it angers a great many Illinois tax payers because they see their kids squeezed out of UIUC with no good alternative in-state schools.
You can’t compare this situation to Iowa or Purdue, as both of those states do not produce enough qualified high-stat students to fill their own universities. They heavily rely on OOS students and NRA’s to do so. With the decline in student demographics in the Midwest, Wisconsin will be doing more of this as well.
Michigan is an outlier among these schools as its large endowment and minimal public support allows it to operate as a semi-private. They are very open that the reason they have so many OOS and NRA students is that they need them to pay for the in-state students. Besides, if in-state kids do not get into UM, MSU is a great school. Kids in Illinois who don’t get into UIUC don’t have this type of option to fall back on.
My hope is that UIUC gets valued by the residents of Illinois the same way that Wisconsin residents look at UW, Michigan residents treat UM and MSU, and Indiana residents look at IU and Purdue. They enthusiastically support those universities as highly desirable flagships. Right now at our high school, the high stat kids see UIUC as a non-desirable fall back, the matches see it as equal to a dozen different OOS options, and the reaches despise it because they are blocked out by NRA’s. Kids at our high school are not enthused to become an Illini, and that is sad when you look around and see the strong support for flagship universities in surrounding states.
@Gator88NE As an Illinois resident, I don’t get upset with the in-state enrollment numbers. To try and keep this on topic…if states like Illinois and Wisconsin decrease funding as much as their governor’s propose, how much should in-state students expect preferential treatment in admissions? (I don’t have the exact figure of how much of UIUC’s budget is covered by state funding, but I believe a lot of IL residents would be surprised by the small percentage.) Universities are not only dealing with budget hurdles, they’re also trying to improve the quality of their programs, while still managing the expectations of its residents…not an easy task.
I think I missed those threads, but I know people in a similar position. I ‘get’ the anger of parents of those children. However, if you delve into a lot of those stories, you can often see a possible explanation other than the default that they were skipped over “in favor of foreign nationals”. As we’ve seen on CC time and again, admissions is complicated…just like “real life”.
Lastly, I just wanted to address the issue of “(t)he difficulty of switching to another engineering major can mean that you may be effectively trapped in your original major.” I would counter that one of the biggest factors contributing to this problem is that a lot of applicants preference an engineering major they think will gain them admittance, while expecting to do an internal transfer. The university can’t stop this scenario, but I have little empathy for those who try to game the system.
I’m sure some “gaming” takes place when selecting majors, but how reasonable is it to force a 17 year old to determine their life’s career, as part of a college app? This isn’t unique to UIUC, and I understand it has it’s reasons, but it’s not an “optimal” option from the kids standpoint.
@Gator88NE The alternative to gaining acceptance to major at time of admittance at a lot of the other big engineering schools is to be admitted to General Engineering for freshman year and then apply for admittance to an individual major to start sophomore year. At most of these schools, a number of the majors having limited enrollment and make entrance “competitive” based on first year grades. Not sure it is “optimal” to add that stress to an 18 year old’s first year of college either.
It is a chicken or the egg problem. To rephrase the questions, if schools like Illinois increase the percentage of OOS and NRA students, why should the states continue to support them?
I have little empathy for schools whose systems require gaming, particularly state schools whose mission is to serve the public.
UIUC treats most of their business and engineering departments as “silos.” You apply the university and then the school. The university can accept you, but the department may not. If you don’t get into a competitive major at UIUC out of high school, most people look elsewhere. However, studies have shown that a large percentage of student’s change majors more than once, and UIUC’s system does not facilitate engineering or business majors changing their mind between high school and the first few years of college.
Florida’s system is much more open. Students do not apply to their school until 60 credit hours are earned. It is also relatively easy to change Universities. An engineering major who meets the prerequisites but does not get accepted to UF’s engineering program can easily apply to FSU, UCF, USF, FAU or FIU. At the same time, students at these lower schools who meet the prerequisites and excel can apply to UF or any of the other engineering schools for their final two years.
It is a flexible system that allows students to succeed as they mature. Most importantly,it serves the taxpayers well by giving the widest possible number of students a chance at successful, desired outcomes. This is something that the Illinois system does poorly at. If you look at the article I linked to earlier, you will see that enrollment at most of Illinois’ regional universities fell dramatically between 2006 and 2014. In contrast, enrollments in the Florida State University System have risen from 287,000 in 2005 to 341,000 in 2014.
http://www.flbog.edu/resources/iud/enrollment_results.php
It would be much less stressful on students if they studied within a system that is flexible and gives them the greatest opportunity to succeed over four years rather than one that pigeonholes these kids based on high school admissions.
@Zinhead Neither alternative is perfect. If my kid was fairly certain they wanted to study an engineering major and got into that major at College A I think there are advantages to knowing they are already in that major vs. hoping they could get in after 2 years at College B. Also, that isn’t to say they can’t switch majors within engineering (or to a non-engineering major) just that some may be tougher to switch into than others.
I don’t know how it works exactly at UF but it sounds like there is a limitation on who gets into what major at UF but it is made when they apply for majors at the 60 hour mark? So they have to worry for 2 years about whether they will get into their major (GPAs are deciding factor for most popular majors?) or are all easy to get into? So the solution for a kid that wants to study Computer Science but doesn’t get into UF Computer Science at that point is to transfer to another school after he/she has spent 2 years at UF? Obviously, that isn’t ideal either. How many kids want to uproot all the connections they have made in 2 years and start over socially, etc. elsewhere? I suspect most would just pick another major that they could get into at UF (similar to what someone at UofI would do if they tried to switch majors and couldn’t get into their ideal major).
My points are more specific to Uof I and how/when schools admit students to their majors vs. how each state funds/supports all of its universities. I agree that the other state schools in Illinois are not ideal but I think part of that is due to limited state support (funding and otherwise). It appears that the state of Florida’s focus in supporting all of its state colleges/universities is probably more successful.
What about the much vaunted Big Ten CIC? You have academics from other colleges saying this is a big factor for joining the Big Ten.
re: UIUC. From what I’ve read, UIUC has some impacted majors and those are very competitive for admission. UIUC is definitely not an overall “safety” school for most…
Re; the budget cuts in IL, it seems UIIUC will come out just fine… some of it due to those international students paying OOS fees.
No, what’s going down in IL are the directionals, unfortunately - Chicago State has had problems for decades, I think, but the budget - or lack of it - is the final straw for CSU. I heard on the news last week that ALL staff and professors are being let go after this year. I think that means it will be no more.
Eastern IL U and SIU-C are also suffering for lack of a budget from the state, (other directionals likely are too). their enrollment numbers have been down for some time now, anyway, and those schools attract many low to middle-income students. Eep. EIU which has the cheapest tuition in the entire system. The word is, students are not receiving their need-based grants or scholarships this year…
I’m not sure how Rauner expects to create a climate of union-busting and pro-free enterprise, all while making it so poor students cannot attend college… But I guess he’s not so interested in people…
Finally, many students around here (NE IL) go to UW- Madison, as an alternative to UIUC, I think, for a variety of reasons - one being Champaign/Urbana is really not that great, Madison is a much better college town. And there are plenty of upper middle-class/wealthy students in the Chicago area willing to pay the OOS tuition.
@zinhead “Right now at our high school, the high stat kids see UIUC as a non-desirable fall back, the matches see it as equal to a dozen different OOS options, and the reaches despise it because they are blocked out by NRA’s. Kids at our high school are not enthused to become an Illini, and that is sad when you look around and see the strong support for flagship universities in surrounding states.”
This is our experience too. They are in desperate need of a PR/marketing campaign. Schools like Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan State, in fact most B1G schools all do a good job of convincing students that they will not only get a great education, they will also gain a four year life experience that goes way beyond the classroom. In contrast, highschoolers tend to have a image of Illinois as a place to take classes, go back to you room, and wait for the next class. Being in the middle of nowhere does not help this image.
The problem is that instead of working to improve their boring image, they have instead decided to recruit more NRAs who are only going for the education, and do not care about it being boring. It would not be difficult to change this image, with a modest effort. University of Chicago has been working to improve its, “Where fun comes to die” image, I think that Illinois would benefit from a similar effort.
@Big10Grad For most majors (including engineering), an UF freshman admit has to simply meet the minimum GPA requirements for that major. In fact, when applying to UF, you have the option of selecting your major but it’s not used in admissions. For example, my daughter started out as an ISE major. In her first semester, she took an engineering seminar class that spent each week covering one of the different fields of engineering offered at UF (about 15 programs). She wasn’t sure about her major until her 2nd year (after talking with other students, employers at career fairs, and doing more research).
This is different for CC transfer students, who have to met competitive GPA targets (that vary by program) for admissions. Keep in mind that the Florida state system is built to support transfer students from CCs (much like California’s system). Luckily, if you can’t get into your preferred major at UF, as a CC transfer student, other state schools have very solid programs.
^ Good point. A lot of schools seem to get stuck with an image grounded in a bit of truth that is hard to shake. Champaign Urbana will likely never change - its stuck with the cards it was dealt. USC one time considered moving its campus to Orange County thinking a new location would help improve its image. Berkeley still has the hippie, “cold weather”, meat grinder environment which will likely never change and so it will continue to lose out on kids to warmer and more glamorous UCLA.
Wisconsin has a more fun, party school reputation - even though it has great academics too.
I just got back from running errands so I’ll share some random thoughts.
My first thought was ‘jobs’. States need educated workers to fill jobs and grow business within the state.
I’m curious what you think “serve the public” means. Then read the mission statements of the schools we’ve been discussing.
Perhaps more energy should be expended to talk about careers earlier, so high school graduates are better prepared when choosing a school and a major. It’s too expensive to approach college as a time to “find oneself”. I’m not saying you can’t discover things about yourself and grow, but it’s getting harder to spend the first couple of years taking gen eds.
In the case of my son, who is a strong student, we encouraged him to not take AP Lit. He was undecided on whether to pursue an engineering or business degree. For a semester he took Senior themes…a class where you read 5 books, then write a paper and do a short presentation on each one. It sounded like a joke and some friends gave us questioning glances, but we wanted him to have the time to research both fields of study. Instead of reading Twilight and “stuff like that”, he read books my husband recommended that might help him decide which major was more appealing.
I agree with @Big10Grad that neither way of declaring a major is perfect. However, in my opinion, your perceived “flexibility” actually sounds more stressful to me.
And a lot of perceptions not grounded in truth or just personal preference.
Hang around a doctor’s office and you would think everyone is sick all of the time.
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“Right now at our high school, the high stat kids see UIUC as a non-desirable fall back, the matches see it as equal to a dozen different OOS options, and the reaches despise it because they are blocked out by NRA’s. Kids at our high school are not enthused to become an Illini, and that is sad when you look around and see the strong support for flagship universities in surrounding states.”
Personally, I am only concerned about the UIUC COE and not comparisons to other B1G schools as a whole, especially since the different colleges at UIUC have different admissions criteria. UIUC COE attracts high stats students and it is effectively a 10,000 student honors college within UIUC. So, to what other dozen different OOS engineering options is UIUC an undesirable fall back?
It seems to me there are bunch of suburban Chicago parents on these forums that are simultaneously complaining about UIUC not improving its desirability/stature and then also frustrated that not every IL high student that wants to attend is admitted ... but then why would any student want to attend in the first place because the campus is "in the middle of nowhere".
@Much2Learn You wrote … “In contrast, high schoolers tend to have a image of Illinois as a place to take classes, go back to you room, and wait for the next class. Being in the middle of nowhere does not help this image.”
So high schoolers have this perception? Exactly what can’t a 18-22 year do between classes @ UIUC that is so prevalent everywhere else?
So on the drive from Chicago to Iowa City, Bloomington, West Lafayettte, East Lansing, Colombia, South Bend ... you felt you were heading to the middle of ... somewhere??
@BeeDAre You wrote “Finally, many students around here (NE IL) go to UW- Madison, as an alternative to UIUC”
How big a number is signified by many? So what about the number of NE IL students that did attend UIUC and also dwarf the number that attend UW? Bottom line is that Chicago area kids choose to attend many OOS schools, but even more do attend UIUC.
If UIUC was entirely in state students, the complaint would be that its not diverse enough.
@IlliniDad18 “So high schoolers have this perception? Exactly what can’t a 18-22 year do between classes @ UIUC that is so prevalent everywhere else?”
Yes, I my experience many students perceive that Wisconsin, or Michigan, would be more fun. Notice that I am not saying that the reality is much different. I am saying that the perception/image is different. The average person who lives in Illinois (not an alum, just a citizen) doesn’t see to have the level of pride in Illinois that you see in the average Joe in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, or Indiana.
To be clear, I am not down on Illinois. I am saying that I believe their product is better than the perception of the average high school student and that they need to do a better job getting the word out about how great the school is and getting high school students excited about the school.
Get the students on campus, have some rah rah events, sing the fight song, put a great speaker in front of them to tell them why UIUC is the best place in the world, and the next four years will change their life. 17 year olds don’t need a lot of substance. Mostly they want to feel like getting in was an achievement, and that this school is the most exciting place they could spend the next four years, with great classes, professors, social life, clubs, research, speakers, athletics, greek life, internships, job placement and virtually endless opportunities 24/7 for students who are willing to raise their hand and get involved.
It seems to me that in the case of UIUC the hard work is building a substantive school like that and that is done already. It just needs a marketing/image boost.