I am a current first-year at a small LAC in Ohio. I was recently admitted to UW-Madison and UNC-Chapel Hill as a transfer. I am 100% committed to declaring a major in Environmental Studies when I start in the fall.
At UW-Madison, I am an in-state student and would graduate with zero debt, but the program is not exactly what I want, and it is unclear if I could double major, which I need to with Environmental Studies, and still graduate in time. I would hopefully double major in Community & Environmental Sociology and Environmental Studies at UW-Madison.
At UNC-Chapel Hill, I would apply to declare a major with the Environmental Studies-Sustainability Track and hopefully be accepted into their 4-1 program to get a Masters in Public Administration. The 4-1 program allows me to worry a little less about my GPA as I would not have to worry about graduate school admissions allowing me to focus more on the resources available at UNC. Though at UNC, I would be graduating with about 30k in debt.
Currently, I plan to do policy work or possibly even go to law school with a focus on environmental health. I am leaning more towards UNC-Chapel Hill due to the smaller size of the school and it being safer and warmer than Madison.
$30K isn’t the worst amount of debt- but it will still be challenging, given how poorly paid entry level jobs are in your fields of interest. Note also that an MPA w/o work experience is going to qualify you for pretty much the same salary as the BA/BS.
I think that you have rose-colored glasses on for the shiny new away thing v the hometown girl/boy, which is very human and understandable. Just be honest with yourself about it, v trying to justify it as objectively better.
Of law school is a consideration, then your GPA becomes even more important than if grad school is the next step. I am assuming that the 30k in debt at UNC is without the MPA. How much is it with the MPA? Law school is expensive. I don’t see the double major at Wisconsin increasing your job prospects. Just taking some of the classes may satisfy you. Even with an advanced degree (MPA or JD), your income may not be able to support a lot of debt.
I would try to speak to a UW advisor about the ability to double-major. If it can’t be done, so be it, but UW has massive international rep too – it is at least the academic equal of UNC overall, judging by their grad/PhD strength – and saving $30k will help, especially with a Master’s potentially in the cards.
It would be about 30-40k in loans if I did the MPA because it is only an additional year. But it could be decreased if I worked a full-time job in the summer and/or part-time during school, which could be more doable at UNC given that I am not required to double major. Unfortunately, if I want to major in Environmental Studies, I would have to double major at UW-Madison, as that is how the program works. But I have emailed a UW advisor about doing so, but given the requirements and the lack of overlap they allow, it would be difficult.
I would never do an MPA (or MBA) right after undergrad. It’s great marketing for the school to keep you an extra year - and your income.
What a waste of a degree from a monetary POV.
Work a few years and then go back.
btw - we just hired an engineer with MBA as a specialist - four years out of school. Not sure what we are paying him - but a specialist level makes less than my son will make coming out with an engineering degree. I just don’t get those who go straight through - you are all giving up the ability to pivot and grow your income later.
Don’t forget loans have interest and fees - so you are not borrowing $40K and actually getting $40K - more like $38.5K or so. And interest then adds over time.
But that could mean passing up doing a no/low paid internship or lower paid job that would get you relevant experience over the summer-which are often key to getting actual jobs post graduation.
The ES major is paired with another major- that does not necessarily mean a full double major. I hope the person you emailed will be able to sort out whether or not you would be able to graduate in 3 years.
My dad did that; he worked for like 20 years and then went back to get a free MBA. I didn’t know if the same rule applied to the MPA as it does to an MBA.
I wouldn’t worry about completing the Environmental Studies major. The requirement that you have a second major demonstrates that they know that it is a fluff major and you really need something else to make you employable. Environmental Studies is best thought of as a second major not a primary. Earning a Certificate in Environmental Science will get you the same place.
I would disagree in this context - the career roles are different but the concept not dissimilar.
Getting out without prior work experience will put you in an entry role vs having work experience which shows employers you can get it done in the work place.
Op you can simply call top programs such as Syracuse and Indiana and ask about prior work experience for admissions and for career outcomes - how they differ by students with and without prior experience.
Personally I am pro MPA overall although in many cases an mba will serve a govt employee better.
I think the discussion here is about straight through or not. Call the two I listed (they are the top 2) and ask. Best of luck.
Syracuse has a top rated program- and is still accepting applications for a July start. It takes ~50% of applicants.
IRL the biggest driver of MPAs is for government workers who have a few years experience and need a masters degree to qualify for promotion to a given rank. Notice how many pathways there are- online, short courses that can be done on weekends, etc.
Your field probably will require a Masters at some point- but it’s too early to commit. You want to be sure which Masters will suit your actual path- and you don’t (& can’t) know what that is at this point.
Yes, Syracuse and IU year after year are the #1 and #2 schools (if you look at US News) - always and always ahead of Harvard. It used to be SU alone.
Finding out outcomes for students straight through vs. who come back - would be a good indicator.
Maxwell (SU) puts out grads who lead in both the public and private sector.
The discussion here is UNC/UW but I mentioned these two schools because they are known leaders and seeing how outcomes differ might help OP.
In general, someone who has work experience has more to add to class discussions, etc. and that’s why it’s a better fit…IMHO. They also stand out to employers - vs. who knows what we are getting and if they know what it means to work.
With a better understanding of the student landscape from both an admissions and outcomes POV, the student can make a better distinction as to whether it’s smart to go straight through or to your point, not at all.
I am pro MPA but I’d rather, if my student, they get an MBA - even for governmental jobs.
I’m with you on this, @tsbna44! I have seen it from my own Masters program and now from ones at which I have taught: in programs that allow students to go straight through from undergrad (a decreasing number), those students contribute less. Interestingly, in both 5 and 10 year follow ups a majority say that they wish they had waited a few years to get their Masters: they feel that they would have gotten much more from the program if they had had some experience.
I would not rush into an MPA. I went to NYU’s Wagner School in the 90s for my MPA in nonprofit management after working three years in public service. (I earned my undergrad degree at SU Maxwell.) At NYU, at least, most of the MPA students were older and working full time. Even though I was graduate school age, 25-26, I worked 40+ hour weeks and went to school at night and on weekends, graduating in the two years. I received a fellowship that covered 50% of tuition so luckily, I didn’t need to take on any debt.
I decided to get the degree because I applied for a management position with a nonprofit and they told me I didn’t have the experience. Less than two years after graduation, I was hired as executive director of a small nonprofit that was undergoing major changes, and now 30 years later, I’m the ED of a large, successful nonprofit.
The math isn’t adding up. Where is that 30k figure coming from? The difference between in-state and OOS is triple the tuition. I’m suspecting the cost is going to be far higher than that. For that reason, I wouldn’t consider UNC. You could be walking into financial death trap.
Also, Environmental Studies is not an especially employable degree. If you manage to find a related job, the pay is generally poor. It would be wise to supplement that with a teaching certificate in the event you don’t find a job, or, of course consider law school. But law is not a career for most people.
