Vaccine reluctance & General COVID Discussion

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3812

I can’t provide broad data but a personal experience.

I have unfortunately for several years had recurring melanoma. Several weeks back another biopsy another surgery required. Not major thankfully but normally prioritized at my local hospital and treated as an outpatient depending on level of anesthesia required.

Based on staff shortage and strained resources procedure was delayed 5 weeks. The night before I get a call that my surgeon (fully vaccinated) has a breakthrough case. Procedure pending but at a minimum 2 months longer then normal. I can’t quantify medical impact of any but certainly sleepless nights and concern.

I suspect this is representative of what our entire healthcare system is experiencing and I fear for those with more life threatening or urgent needs.

As I have posted before I am not for vax mandates because I don’t think they will work. I am for people acting responsibly and recognizing that for the vast majority of Americans getting vaccinated is in their best health interests and simply the right thing to do for society.

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3813

This is a great example why we need basic universal healthcare. It’s not only the right thing to do for those among us who can’t afford, but also it’s for the benefit of all of us.

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3814

I’m sorry for what you’re having to deal with.

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3815

Good luck with your medical issues. Praying for rapid treatment and a great outcome.

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3816

Thank you both for the well wishes. I am absolutely fine and they keep catching it early but much appreciated!! Unfortunately parts of my body look like a shoots and ladders board for those of you over 50.

My point was that while I certainly think it important that we all try and stay informed, demand the CDC provide context to recommendations, and listen to our doctors no one should need data to realize that filled ICU beds (from a disease from which a vaccine nearly eliminates severe illness) needlessly diminishes the care of everyone.

This should just be self evident and I would flip it back and ask please show me data that Covid isn’t overtaxing our medical system in high impact areas and or how that doesn’t negatively impact care?

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3817

Super interesting perspective/experience - thank you for posting.

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3818

@JBStillFlying, I think you are conflating two things. Choosing not to be vaccinated and vaccine mandates. To the best of my knowledge, most of the people choosing not to take the vaccine are not facing a vaccine mandate. Some of them live in states that have banned vaccine mandates. They are not refusing vaccination because of a hypothetical vaccine mandate. That is their choice for other reasons that I don’t fully understand (maybe “Don’t want to be pushed around by liberal elites”?) and that have been discussed in this thread, largely by people who can’t wrap their heads around the choice not to get a vaccine.

However, having chosen not to get the vaccine, there is a second and distinct step, the choice to lie, which knowingly endangers the lives of others. Lying in a manner that knowingly endangers others’ lives is a moral choice (or a Christian choice) because … ? Your church says you shouldn’t get the vaccine?

Shouldn’t any calculation of morality include a) the impact of your choices on the lives of others; and b) lying? I think that the choice to lie about being vaccinated elevates one’s own convenience over others’ safety. I can’t tell the story about how that is a moral choice.

I left my religious roots long ago but I’m pretty sure that lying generally is also considered something not approved by God (https://faithfulchristian.net/thou-shalt-not-lie-bible-verses-about-lying-and-deceit/).

So, I’m guessing this should be defined as a political choice (my freedom to choice even if I have to lie about it is more important than others’ comfort or safety). I can accept that framing (though I wouldn’t really like to share my neighborhood or even my country with a person with those beliefs) so I would ask you can enlighten me as to how people can frame it as a moral choice relative to not lying and not increasing others’ risk of contracting the disease.

I don’t have a problem restricting certain activities like flying or attending college classes to the vaccinated. We won’t let kids attend school or summer camp without proper vaccination. You can choose not to have one’s kids vaccinated but you should know and accept the consequences (no public school, few summer camps, some pediatricians won’t see you, some people won’t let your kids play with theirs, etc.). When you travel to certain places, you are required to have specific vaccines (yellow fever IIRC). I suspect that most countries will not let unvaccinated people enter.

Enforcing this in the US would be a mess because a) we don’t have a national database of vaccinations or medical records; and b) doing so would encounter political resistance in a number of states that want to ban any distinctions based upon COVID vaccination. Again the logic here is not strong as they do ban kids from attending school without other vaccinations so the issue here is political/tribal and not the existence of a mandate. But our failure to have a national database does make it easy to lie.

When AIDS was in its unfortunate heyday, an AIDS sufferer spitting on someone or sharing bodily fluids without information/consent was considered a crime. (Criminal transmission of HIV in the United States - Wikipedia). But even without specific AIDS-related laws, weren’t people who knowingly exposed others to a risk they would get AIDS charged with something like reckless endangerment? (From Findlaw: “the criminal offense of recklessly engaging in conduct that creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury or death to another person . Whether you meant any harm or not, creating a situation that puts someone else at risk is illegal.”) Is there be a category of behavior that should defined as criminal with respect to COVID? What about the parent who sent his child (children?) to school after the parent and kid both tested positive?

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3819

Morgan Stanley NYC is apparently confronting this. Substantial covid outbreak now despite rule that all in person workers had to certify they were vaxxed. MS now requires actual vaccination cards to be filed with HR. I expect the fed govt will have the same problem with its employees and contractors

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3820

My niece got her first shot! Her doctor had recommended that she hold off but now decided with delta that she should just go ahead and do it. I’m so happy about this.

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3821

I hadn’t thought of things in that vein, but in the anti-vaccine families (on both sides) the non-college educated parents will not get vaxxed, but their college educated kids did.

Interesting take.

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3822

Not in my family. The college and not college folks have been vaccinated.

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3823

That’s good to hear but why on earth would a good doctor tell her to hold off? She should get a new doctor.

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3824

A doctor of CNN this morning had 3 reasons the FDA approval will cause vaccinations to go up:

  1. The reluctant who said they are waiting for approval
  2. Employers will be able to mandate with more support
  3. Military

While some employers and the military already started the mandate programs, this will just make it easier.

I’m very happy. I’m also happy the FDA did take their time to follow their procedures so that any arguments (law suits and just general bitching) are easier to deal with.

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3826

This one has me shedding a tear. His 37th birthday would have been today:

"On July 20, Josh came home from work with a slight cough initially thought to be sinus trouble. On Aug. 11, he died of COVID-19 at a north Alabama hospital as Christina Tidmore witnessed a doctor and her team frantically try to resuscitate her husband.

“She would say, ’I need a pulse. ’I would hear, ‘no pulse,’ “Christina Tidmore said through tears. “They were trying so hard.”

“Nobody should go through this. He was only 36 and I’m 35 and we have three kids.”

She is now imploring young adults not to dismiss the risk and to consider getting vaccinated.

“Josh was completely healthy, active, not a smoker.” He would have turned 37 on Saturday."

In the past four weeks, people ages 25 to 49 years, made up 14% of all COVID deaths in the state. And people 50 to 64 years made up about 29%.

…

The Alabama Hospital Association said this week that 85% of hospitalized COVID-19 patients are unvaccinated.

Christina Tidmore also had COVID-19 but recovered. She said she and her husband were not anti-vaccine, but heard conflicting information — including, she said, from doctors.

“It’s just a fight out there. This side and that side, and political garbage. … You don’t know who to believe,” she said.

…

The family is relying on their faith to get through and Christina Tidmore wants to share her husband’s story to help people — as Josh would have wanted.

“If you can try to save your life, then you probably should,” she said of vaccinations.

“I have lots of feelings and lots of regret and lots of what ifs,” she said. “”you don’t want to do that. You don’t.”

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Seriously, I post good news regarding my niece and this is the response.

You know nothing about her medical history, what she is being treated for, drugs she is on, and why the doctor originally recommended delaying. Yet you say she should fire her doctor. Wow. She would be qualified for a medical exemption if she needed it. SMH.

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3828

Vaccinations may increase in your #2 and #3 group, but I see the #1 group just moving on to another excuse.

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3829

I have a neighbor who’s daughter has MS. The daughter’s doctor advised that she not receive a Covid vaccine. The daughter came down with Covid and is very ill. My neighbor lost her grandson last year so this is very sad.

Does anyone know why those with MS shouldn’t get the Covid vaccine?

3831

Sorry if I confused the issue by terminology. My shorthand of “vaccine mandate” was really referring to any mandatory showing of a vax card for purposes of school, work, or recreation. I was narrowly addressing the issue of lying, which is a pretty straightforward “thou shalt not” in the Christian creed. No moral theologian here, but I believe there are indeed (rare) cases where lying might serve the greater good if the alternative is to knowingly cooperate in a worse “bad.” Like you, I don’t believe that faking one’s vax card rises to that standard. Personally, I’d love to have that conversation during Bible Study!

I am not aware that any Christian church has condemned the vaccine; however, in the case that one has, members in good standing would have a legitimate religious exemption at most institutions. So, IMO, there is no reason to lie and so lying would be pretty inexcusable there. Clearly there are lots of additional scenarios in which lying about your vax status is going to be wrong. I think we both agree on that. I was earlier bringing up the perceived moral dilemma, not signing on to one side or the other. Hope that’s clear!

I certainly agree that people might choose a political rather than moral path or even confuse the two! I’d caution care in the easy standard of “not increasing others’ risk of contracting the disease” because one can inadvertently infect others despite best intentions and taking the right precautions. It is, after all, a highly infectious virus.

Your state’s experience and general vaccine mandates are different from mine, because mine allows personal exemptions from vaccination for K-12 and public university, and I don’t know any pediatricians who refuse to see unvaxed kids. Not sure there’s a “one size fits all” solution to these public health matters. Usually letting 1,000 flowers bloom means everyone gravitates to a provider, a school, and activities that fulfill their needs.

The US is one country that doesn’t require vaccination for entry, and that’s a federal matter. It’s not up to the states.

There are indeed categories of criminal behavior w/r/t Covid: Woman gets jail after coughing on shopper at Jacksonville Pier 1 store

Unfortunately, dosing up your kid and sending them and their infection along to school is a shameful act that some bad-egg parents have been guilty of long before Covid was around! Perhaps school districts should crack down on this in general.

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3832

You could have just answered by saying there was a medical condition, why the vitriol?
Anyway, there’s a term being used by some healthcare providers: “compassion fatigue”. Many are suffering a lack of compassion for the unvaccinated. I read something a few days ago that was a week old at that time, so I never commented on the thread, but was an interesting read, getting into the minds of these people. Someone had a patient who was implored to get the vaccine but didn’t, who was now COVID positive, and wanting a referral for monoclonal antibodies. The person posting was asking if they should write the orders or not. Of course the answer is yes, they have a patient who is sick and needs help. But their severe emotional and physical exhaustion clouds judgement and blurs ethical lines. Many people commented, some said no because the lines were so long for the antibodies that the patient shouldn’t take a spot over a vaccinated person and/or insurance shouldn’t be paying for this. But most said yes, the patient should be referred for treatment. Someone said they work in a prison and would send a prisoner for treatment so it would probably be ok. You can attack these people but they are trying to do what is best for everyone, yet some people are openly working against them. So many physicians have posted that some patients are wanting certain treatments because that’s what their friend/community leader/etc told them to get. They even bring in fliers of the treatment that they want. The problem is, these treatments have been proven in medical literature to not work, and some even have serious side effects, which when you include certain conditions that a patient may have, can be deadly. Too often it’s the nurses who take the brunt of this and so many are walking away. Hospitals may have beds but they don’t have the nurses to staff them. They don’t have the nurses for a melanoma excision.
A new development: I know several hospitals now who are requiring a blood draw to check COVID antibody levels before admission.

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3833

A family member has MS and has treatments twice a year that suppress her immune system. She was vaccinated, but had to time it far enough away from the treatments or the vaccine could likely be ineffective. I’m not sure why having MS would preclude you from getting the vaccine.

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