Do vaccinated people? We know people who had Covid have antibodies. We know people that get vaccinated create antibodies. We know both can get Covid. We know both can spread Covid if they get it. We have no definitive proof yet how robust those are nor how long either lasts on an individual level. Since people that are unvaccinated are being vilified, he probably felt obligated to tell his why story. And now he’s being vilified for being honest?
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Agree 100% that it’s so sad to hear such comments from those with influence.
And re:
“it should just be their decision. Loving your neighbor is not just loving those who agree with you or look like you or move in the same way that you do. It’s loving those who don’t.”
He misses the point completely. A vaccine would reduce the likelihood of transmission to others.
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Vilification is not the right word here. Is it fair to criticize him? Yes. I know he isn’t an antivaxxer, but full on antivaxxers believe what they say too. Expressing honest opinions doesn’t mean they don’t cause harm.
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- Natural immunity wanes, and wanes more quickly than someone who has received both doses of the vaccine.
- He will have antibodies for about 3 months. Those antibodies are for that variant only; no cross-reactivity and no protection from another variant (and there are multiple variants circulating at one time, Delta is so powerful it has currently squashed the other variants but this will change after it wipes through communities). People who have the vaccine will have coverage for multiple variants.
- With some variants, the vaccine inhibits spread (not true with Delta), unvaxx still spread.
- I hear a lot of “I” in there, no “we”. It’s “we” in a pandemic, since “we” are in this together. Which means vaccination to prevent spread.
- He has a platform – he should use it responsibly. He’s implying it’s ok to get Covid – he turned out ok, so others will too. That’s not the case. The risk of getting covid, with it’s chance of death, long-term effects, loss of wages while sick, spread to family members…… Most people do not have the health and resources that he does. Will Joe Blow, living on 22 Main Street, 55 year-old diabetic, HTN, holding 2 jobs to pay the mortgage, have a similar outcome if he follows Mr. Issac’s advice? I guess since he loves his neighbors he will take on their lost wages and medical bills. If he does that for all the people who follow his advice, then I will respect him. Until that time, he should be more careful with his words.
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What’s thoughtful about this? The answer boils down to “I can’t be bothered”.
Having had COVID before, he may have good antibodies, or he may not. He can’t know unless he gets himself tested. Even those European countries who consider “recovered” status as the equivalent to “vaccinated” status, one dose of an approved vax is required 6 months after recovery to continue to enjoy this status - because there is, guess what, science that says that’s when recovered immunity wanes for most people, particularly people who weren’t exposed to delta yet.
So he thinks he’s young and fit and has recovered once. So it’s fine to not care about the rest of the world.
This is why we will have to have mandates at some point. Because most holdouts aren’t really antivax, they don’t really believe that Bill Gates us about to microchip them or that their backs are going to swell up or that there is a God who cares about pharmaceuticals. They just run a cost benefit analysis in their minds on the basis of skewed facts (overblowing the tiny risk, understating the bigger COVID risk) and just can’t be bothered to take the tiny risk for the good of others.
But of course they want to think about themselves as patriots, good neighbours, good Christians. To get out of the cognitive dissonance, overblow the risks, pretend it’s only about benefit to you.
Not thoughtful. Just an articulate defence of selfishness.
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You and I were typing the same thing at the same time!
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What facts and science is he ignoring? He’s had Covid. More studies than not have indicated that natural immunity is more robust than vaccine immunity.
I have seen and heard of many break through cases of Covid in vaccinated people. I have looked and watched but can find very few cases of confirmed repeat Covid cases. The Israel study confirms that natural immunity is 27 times more protective than the vaccine. His chances of repeat Covid are EXTREMELY slim. And where have you seen that “his next bout of Covid is far more likely to lead to severe consequences”? That’s quite the opposite of what would be expected.
“He fails to acknowledge that he could spread it to people who might die”
Are you acknowledging that vaccinated people can get Covid and spread it to people who might die.
We are missing the boat in this country in getting the hesitant vaccinated. Ignoring natural immunity is a HUGE part of this problem.
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Take from the science what you want.
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Getting covid is likely to be more dangerous than the vaccine. That’s factual. People can get covid more than once. Factual. The virus can mutate. Factual. Yes, vaccinated people can spread covid, but the science shows that vaccinated people don’t have as high viral loads, if they spread it to other vaccinated people it’s less likely to cause hospitalization or death, etc… I don’t pretend to be a scientist. These facts are pretty much common knowledge now.
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You’re 2.3 times more likely to get Covid again if you remain unvaxx versus getting the vaccine after Covid.
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True. We are not talking in this case of the choice of getting Covid or getting the vaccine. We are talking about people who have already had Covid choosing not to get the vaccine. Science says natural immunity is just as strong or stronger than vaccine immunity.
People who get the vaccine can get get Covid. Factual. And from what I can find getting Covid after vaccine is more prevalent than getting Covid more than once.
Show me the study that shows the viral load of a repeat case of Covid. Or the hospitalization rate of a repeat case of Covid. Or the death rate of a repeat case of Covid.
I am NOT arguing against vaccination. I am NOT arguing any points you made about vaccination of people who have not have Covid and all of your points may be factual in regards to those People. Where I diverge from anything you are saying is ignoring natural immunity. I believe in science which in fact, forever, has included natural immunity.
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The REACT study from the UK did weekly swabs, round 12 was Alpha, round 13 was Delta. Their study showed a 3 times higher rate of infection in the unvaxx. The median Ct values is the measure of viral load in the participants. a higher Ct value means less viral load. The vaxx had a lower viral load than the unvaxx.
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I’ve got to say that I am struck by the heart and the myopia. As @TexasTiger2 notes, his rationale is about I and not We. In particular, if one is truly thinking about loving thy neighbor, there is probably nothing one could do better than get vaccinated.
As part of my conversation with my doctor (mentioned above), she sent me a number of pictographs about Covid transmission under various masking assumptions. I can’t vouch for these numbers but they are repeated on a number of charts and my doctor is painstaking (to the point of OCD) and on the faculty of a prestigious medical school. The pictographs say that in reasonably close proximity, the estimated probability of transferring an infection from an asymptomatic infected person to an uninfected person is:
- 70% if the infected person is unmasked and the infected person is masked
- 5% if the infected person is masked and the uninfected person is masked
- 1.5% if both are masked
- 0% if both are masked and more than 6 feet apart.
I don’t know what the numbers are, but I believe the studies indicate that in addition to dramatically reducing the severity of the illness and probabilities of hospitalization of death, being vaccinated lowers the probability of infection and the probability of transmission of infection infected. If true, reducing one’s probability of being a carrier and the probability of transmitting the infection you are infected would probably be the ultimate ways to love thy neighbor.
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Me believing a person should be vaccinated doesn’t mean I ignore natural immunity. Of course that’s real. We don’t diverge at all.
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Before Delta. Vaxx had lower viral load, less symptoms, symptoms subsided quicker and got rid of the virus quicker.
I know several people who got Covid twice. Once very early in the pandemic and the second time before vaccines were available about a year later. One of them was my brother. He was quite sick both times, though technically I think would be listed as a “mild” case since they sent him home from the hospital the first time after determining he wasn’t having a heart attack and he was able to stay at home the second time as well, but was sick for weeks.
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But that’s totally ignoring STATISTICS. I could say, “I know someone in Maine last week who was vaccinated and on a ventilator! So why should I get vaccinated?” That statement is true, but the rest of the story is that 39 out of 40 people on ventilators at the same time were UNVACCINATED (those are real stats). If you’re going to talk about vaccinated people getting severe cases of COVID you have to state how many more unvaccinated people are. That’s what drives me nuts as an engineer.
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Glad you are not ignoring natural immunity. We diverge if you believe in mandating vaccines to those who have had Covid. This conversation started because Jonathan Isaac, NBA player stated he did not want the vaccine because he had Covid and believed the vaccine should be a choice. I agree with him.
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I know several people who say they had Covid twice. I know no one who actually can prove they had Covid twice They weren’t tested both times. The are just sure they had Covid twice because of their sickness and symptoms. With a range of 4 to 8% positivity rate in our area that means that 92 to 96% of the people tested did NOT have Covid. Large percentages of those people were sick, had , symptoms and were just positive it was Covid.
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