I had never heard of him, but I am not the target demographic. I expect that quite a few young men keep up on the NBA news.
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LeBron James has a national (and international) following, and he just reported that he decided to get vaccinated, but to him everyone still has to make their own decision. (In other words, heâs not pushing it on other players.)
Reportedly, ~40 players across the League are not yet vaccinated. (total teams = 30)
Bring out the knives, but to me, to determine whether choosing not to vaccinate is âselfishâ, one first most know that the rates of transmission are significantly higher. Even assuming they are, if the unvaxed person is making choices to minimize their exposure to others, then they are minimizing their âselfishnessâ.
I have no idea what the NBA rules are for the unvaxed, but if he is testing all the time, not going out, and following the local mandate rules (eg not playing indoors if not vaxed), then his choices are negatively impacting him a lot. He has to walk the walk and make those intellectually consistent sacrifices, but if he does, the label of âselfishâ isnât accurate. And not very helpful. Vaccinated folks who are living life with reckless abandon may be both more likely to catch and spread covid than a non-vaxed person living a very cautious life. Are they not âselfishâ just by virtue of getting vaccinated?
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I just listened in on a phone call one of my guys had with a solid âLibertarianâ friend of his - the phone call, in part, was about Covid and mandates, and was initiated because of a disagreement on FB that the two wanted to work out in a discussion - fairly friendly call. My son, H, and I were in a car together and S was the one who chose to put it on speakerphone so we could hear.
The friend spouted off all the typical arguments one hears (not enough testing, Iâm healthy and donât need it, not a major illness, masks donât really work, govât getting way too involved with individual choice - compared it to Nazi Germany with forcing the Jews to get on trains, etc). Itâs all stuff Iâve seen and heard before, but there was one additional interesting part.
When he talked about science/knowledge he started dissing those who only had a college education and not âreal lifeâ education. He chose engineering for his example and said he doesnât like engineers. Apparently they give him plans that never work in reality because they have no idea what they are doing. H is an engineer having been in the field for 30+ years now and having done projects all over locally along with some on other continents. Both S and I reached over and patted his shoulder as we were listening to this guy rant. 
Yep, life would be so much âbetterâ if this guy ran the world instead. In his world one can âexplain the scienceâ behind why itâs better not to pollute waterways (and more), but itâs totally up to the individual if they want to do it or not - their choice. This was an actual example he used. Itâs each individualâs choice whether or not they pollute. Using his logic and knowing how people feel about cutting corners to save money there would probably be a lot more Surfside type condos out there - and how many clean sources of water or farmland would there be?
He also feels that people who are scared of Covid need to stay away from him and not the other way around. S never asked him how this was possible when friend is the one going to stores, restaurants, or anywhere else. Other patrons could stay away I suppose, but what about the workers? His kids are in my school district. How are other kids (and their families) protected from anything?
After the call I asked what the friend did for a living. Right now he drives truck, but heâs been involved in construction and other assorted jobs. Sounds like he has a lot of experience to know how Covid types of things work, no? Heâs certain he does. He even admitted he found most on social media because mainstream media doesnât allow âboth sidesâ to give info and ânot everyone agrees.â
I thought of this thread as we drove home⊠it was a classic example IMO.
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Iâm selfish. We are all selfish. I donât want everyone to get it because I donât want myself or my family to get it. Thatâs the truth. I also donât want my friendâs husband who had a liver transplant due to covid and now needs new kidneys to get it again, etc⊠We donât not vaccinate if we have a choice because billions are unvaccinated. We donât not vaccinate because something else might come along.
100% we need to vaccinate the world. Meanwhile, we all have a moral obligation to do our part. Jonathan Isaac can make a difference today. A shepherd living in rural Kyrgyzstan who isnât likely to do much traveling isnât going to make as much of an impact as an NBA basketball player who probably has a Twitter account. It could be the shepherd who has the next deadly mutation, or it could be Isaac. Isaac can do something about it though.
Btw, completely agree that covid will probably become endemic.
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From those to whom much is given, much is expected. Yes, I hold those known as role models to children to consider the public impact of their words and actions. Issac presumably still expects to use public resources, that is, hospitals, in the event he requires covid hospitalization?
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The selfishness of refusing to vaccinate goes beyond just exposing others to possible infection. For instance, an unvaccinated NBA player runs a much greater risk of missing games due to quarantine, illness, and/or death. The risk impacts the team, the franchise, the fans, and of course the playerâs family, friends, and anyone else who relies on the player (think of his poor agent.)
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fwiw: the league and owners are for 100% vaccinations, but the NBA Players Union is strongly against a mandate.
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The NBA is leaving it up to the cities in which the players play. San Fran and Boston are not allowing players to play home games (not sure if they can prevent visiting players from playing) if not vaccinated and no exemption is granted. One of the Golden state stars can possibly miss all home games. I donât see how the playerâs association can require the team to pay the contract if the player doesnât show up for work, isnât injured, and can do something (get vaxxed) to fix the issue.
Patriots dropped Cam Newton. They said it wasnât because he wasnât vaccinated, but when they had to make a decision to keep him or cut him, they cut him. He wasnât worth the risk of him being unvaccinated (and Bill doesnât like people who donât do everything they can for the team).
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The problem is that while I believe most of the mandates are legal, if a person still chooses not to get vaccinated, and loses their job or has to go through many extra precautions (also legal) what do you want to happen @Lindagaf? I get the impression that some on this thread would make it illegal or would âphysically coerceâ someone to get vaccinated and that is a non-starter for me.
I have also seen enough conflicting scientific data to understand that we definitely donât know everything about the natural immunity benefits or lack of from those who have already had a previous Covid-19 infection, but those people are treated with utter disdain, which I will push back against (Vaccination is always goal, but I donât agree with the judgement or disdain). While I hope that everyone sees the same benefits in the vaccination as I do, I am not upset when people disagree with my own assessment.
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If it is public policy to encourage vaccination, then all public benefits should hinge upon that. Public Employment, public contracts, public housing, public welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, student loans, etc.
We shouldnât pay people who violate public policy.
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Apparently I donât want to live in the same punitive country you want to live in.
It isnât punitive, it is common sense. These are all benefits. To get subsidized by the public, follow public guidelines. No other country allows, or has, the opt-out rate that the US does, and that hurts all of us. Do you find Canada punitive? It is more community minded. We must all do our part for the greater good.
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One of DHâs colleagues had Covid in March 2020. He donates blood every 3 months and the Red Cross was testing for antibodies and he had them for 9 months (and then the Red Cross stopped testing for them ). 3 months is not standardized anywhere Iâve read.
What I find problematic is that natural immunity/herd immunity was the the assumed path until the vaccines were developed. No one expected vaccines to be developed and available in the record breaking time they were. Weâd still be hoping for natural immunity to end the pandemic otherwise.
Now natural immunity (and itâs antibodies) is considered crap and only the vaccines can produce acceptable antibodies. Is that scientific? Is there data supporting that premise? What level of antibodies is acceptable or protective? We donât know and yet the vaxxed are continually degrading those that had Covid as somehow inferior.
I have no idea what my antibody levels are. Iâm âtrusting the scienceâ that the vaccine worked and Iâm somehow protected. Yet, Iâm still wearing a mask and not eating indoors thatâs what the science says too. So how protected am I? From severe illness and death I hope.
Yes continual vaccination will keep antibodies artificially high but is that ok? Or healthy? No other vaccine we receive is continually âboostedâ. When was the last time people were tested for measles, mumps, or diphtheria antibodies?
Iâd like more real studies in natural immunity because millions of people have had and recovered from Covid. When did artificial immunity become the gold standard? We vaccinate kids so they wonât get measles etc⊠would they still get the measles vaccine if they had the measles prior to vaccination, or after a breakthrough case? I have no idea but itâs worth considering.
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I realize that many on cc believe that the upcoming OSHA rule is a slam-dunk, but I encourage everyone to read a col in todayâs WSJ. It wonât change your pov, but will give you some background on what the legal challenges will be.
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What Iâm finding punitive is the attitude here of many people that want to exclude people who choose not to get vaccinated from participating in society. They want to exclude health care. Some have even indicated they are ok with the unvaccinated dying because of their choice. Public policy is not a law. A free country includes difference of opinion and still participating in our society. Many of the people, I know, who think like this are the same people who want to defund the police and let criminals released. Let a criminal participate in society but not someone who made a medical decision to not get a vaccination. Itâs the inconsistency I canât stand. I believe in laws and follow the laws. I donât lie, not even to get a booster shot. And yes, on the booster thread there is lots of defending lying to go against our current public policy on getting the booster.
When I say I believe in healthcare for all, really mean for all, even the unvaccinated. There is so much hypocrisy and inconsistency. Sorry, thatâs just how I see it.
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I agree that we donât know everything yet, nor will we for quite some time. The 3 months came because initially that is what was thought by the scientific community, now it is much longer. Could it be a year? Sure. Maybe. We donât know.
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I donât want anything to happen to them, except they canât co-mingle with the public. They can stay home - no school, work, shopping, eating out. The have to isolate from society because they donât agree to take the precautions the rest of us have agreed to.
Medicaid, medicare, Pell grants, SS, attending school, and some others are entitlements, so they should still get those. Things that are benefits that you have to qualify for, like jobs or attending school IN PERSON, can be withheld until they comply with the conditions set.
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I also donât understand why I am being punished. I havenât been able to see my 80+ year-old father since the pandemic began. My kids are still learning remotely. I have to wear a mask wherever I go, and that in an of itself may cause long-term health problems. Why do I have to be punished? Why canât I live the life I used to have? Oh.
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