Vaccine reluctance & General COVID Discussion

@bluedog seems to be swimming in a sea of misinformation without a science-background paddle to get them out, which is distressing but not unusual.

Bluedog, every point you’re raising has been addressed, and addressed reasonably, by dozens of epidemiologists, virologists, drug developers, doctors, nurses, science communicators, and public health experts.

If what you’re saying here is “I don’t trust any of them because they’re too self-interested,” then not only are you missing the boat on why most of them are doing the work they do, but there’s no point in listening to anyone involved in medical science. You can stop pretending that you take them seriously – or hoping that they’re going to give you some magical nonscientific response to your concerns. At that point you can just go pick up an herbalist book and hope that it’s clear and honest about why human lifespans were so much shorter back when that was the best anyone could hope for in terms of medicine. If it’s honest, it’ll also bring you back around to pharmaceuticals, because so much in medicine comes from plants – only science has been applied to find out what exactly it is that makes the cure go, the molecules have been identified, and the drug companies have avoided clearing entire forests in a hunt for tiny quantities of the magic and instead gone and synthesized the active ingredients in labs. And those molecules are very much the same as the ones in the plants. That was a couple decades’ worth of intense and fashionable science, and some’s still around.

If what you’re saying is “I’m scared,” then please go watch some videos of nurses taking you through covid wards, and read some covid-autopsy papers, so you’ll know what to be scared of. Have a good gander at what that virus does to the insides of people’s bodies. The vaccines themselves have turned out to be spectacularly safe after hundreds of millions of doses have been given. Most of what you take for whatever ails you is more dangerous to you than these vaccines are likely to be.

If what you’re saying is “I don’t want to be forced,” well, you aren’t. Because our government is ridiculously tolerant, anyone can go ahead and be as unreasonable with their own health as they like. You just aren’t allowed to go spreading a bad disease to other people, so you’ll have to get tested quite often and isolate if you catch it.

If what you’re saying is “people shouldn’t have to consider other people,” then may I suggest making better friends with Bezos so you can hitch a ride on that rocket to a place where you won’t have other people to worry about. Here on earth we have to consider each other. More and more all the time.

If what you’re saying is “make people feel safe,” then at this point my preferred option is to require vaccination for most of what people want to do. You’ll notice that after years of hysterics, almost nobody worries about the varicella vax, the HPV vax, Dtap, most of the ones you need for kindergarten. Or meningitis, which some colleges require. Or hep C, or pneumovax. And that’s because vaccines are the most spectacular public-health win we’ve ever had. Hardly anyone suffers ill effects; diseases vanish; outcry also subsides.

If, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, what you’re saying is “I dunno, looks pretty sus,” then I can’t do anything about an enjoyment of paranoias, a need for secret and superior knowledge, and an unwillingness to take the deaths of millions seriously.

If what you’re saying is “Purity Of Essence,” then ain’t nothing to say.

Yeah – I saw something from some rural-medicine person in Indiana who’s using this as a platform for more money for rural medicine, and it’s really annoying to get this spin. Yes, rural America needs more doctors. But no, the doc’s living 45 minutes away is not the reason why rural people aren’t being persuaded by kindly, familiar Dr. Wenowdis. (s.v.: we have zoom now, and I hear most people are on the telephone, and I don’t know what fantasy world this is in which all city folk have trusted Dr. Wenowdis consulting in some kind of Norman Rockwell scene and rolling up their sleeves in consequence.)

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But I bet they got a Walgreens somewhere within a hundred miles. Where the pharmacist can tell them that the vaccine is free, in case they’ve missed the thousands of media messages.

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Wow. If this is the thing that takes down or reforms TSA, what a many-sided win that’ll be.

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In the narrative about the doctorless rural unvaxed, nobody has a computer because them’s devil machines, and honest people send messages by homing pigeon if they’re in as big a hurry as all that.

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Wow. No need to be snarky.
As I said in my original post the list of questions are concerns of friends I know, about the vaccine.
I think I mentioned ( perhaps not clearly) I am not anti-vaccine. I am not going to disclose my personal medical history because it is not anyones business. However, it is more than a bit concerning that we have given up our right to privacy… and so many people are ok with that reality. Never thought I would need to show a waitress in a restaurant, or cashier in a super market my medical record just to eat or buy food.

In my state, anyone buying liquor is asked to show their drivers license or something that verifies their age. I doubt anyone feels that is “giving up their privacy”.

You are not showing your medical records. You are showing one card that verifies that you have been vaccinated. I doubt that the store staff does anything but check…they probably don’t even remember your name after you show the card.

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None of us lives on an island in solitude. When we live with others, we have to be mindful of something called public health. Right now there’s a public health emergency. With every right we have, it comes with resposibilities, including the responsibilty for the health of fellow citizens who we interact with.

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Are you and your friends against all vaccine mandates or just this one?

Should we stop requiring vaccine requirements for public schools and trust that parents will talk with and listen to their doctors and then hope enough kids get vaccinated to prevent outbreaks of preventable and deadly childhood diseases? Should we end MMR and meningitis vaccine requirements for college students?

I’m seriously asking because some states, like Texas, are toying with doing away with all vaccine mandates.

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At this point I feel most anti-vax people are just resisting admitting that they are wrong. The ones I know are the kind of people who will dig in their heels deeper in proportion to their opponent having solid evidence, and they view this not as a health issue but as a fight they must win or else lose face. Humiliation is really, really psychologically painful, so I am not surprised at reports that peple are dying of Covid in the hospital while refusing to acknowledge that’s what’s killing them. It is what it is, I guess…

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At some point it feels like this conversation has run it’s course. It goes dormant for awhile.

And then there is a post that reignites the conversation but it’s the same conversation over and over again. Rinse and repeat.

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I agree with this. I don’t like seeing it.

You don’t. In some places one just needs to show proof of vaccination the same way most folks have to in order to go to school/college or apply for some jobs (like in health care), etc. There’s nowhere around that wants to see anyone’s complete medical record outside perhaps astronaut training or a doctor’s office.

Anything more is hyperbole wanting people to believe the sky is falling.

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Anyone not wanting to be notified about new posts in it or see it at all can go to the tracking button below the last post, click on it, and click on “normal” or “muted” as desired.

That’s an option we have with all threads now since the latest site update. I love it and have used it on some threads. That way I don’t feel annoying continuing to see threads I don’t want and others who do enjoy them can keep on.

Personally, I’m not tired of this particular thread, so offering the option for those who are so they don’t lobby for the thread to get shut down because they are tired of seeing it.

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Wow, that’s an amazing post. Should be required reading for all vax reluctant people, and anti vaxxers too.

As for this:

The bigger concern is that 700,000+ are dead and people are still protesting about their privacy being invaded. Let’s remember the untold millions who haven’t died of covid but are suffering lingering effects. NO ONE has given up their right to privacy. Don’t go to that restaurant if you don’t want to show your vax status. Don’t go to your job if you don’t want to take that vaccine. But don’t complain about those things when you make your choice. Your choice might save someone’s life.

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No one is interested in your “personal medical history.” Not even the waitress at the restaurant that requires proof of vaccination.

Anything more is hyperbole wanting people to believe the sky is falling.

You got that right!

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No not against vaccination nor are the friends with whom I have had this conversation. If someone does not want to vaxx their kid they can always homeschool. But to deprive people the ability to provide withoutexception is wrong.
Our country has a very long history of individualism and personal responsibility.
I think some of the concern is a “mandate” that requires proof of medical compliance via a QR code. Showing your Drivers license is not the same situation.
I disagree that because so much of our information is available for public consumption my medical info should also be out there.
Incrementalism is slow.

I really hope the Novavax vaccine is approved by the FDA soon. It has been submitted for WHO approval already. Unlike the other approved vaccines, it does not involve the fetal cell derived testing or production, and thus hopefully would be more acceptable to some. A staggering number of our employees object to the current vaccines on that basis ( and yes, I realize a similar situation occurs in most common OTC medicine).

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Very slow. In more modern times, first seatbelts, then not being able to smoke in most public places, and now being vaccinated against a disease that has killed millions worldwide - all because the majority of people don’t want to die or have lifelong problems by getting it.

The sky is falling indeed.

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As is allowing one person to kill or seriously maim another via their choices. The latter, of course, being more wrong. The former - people can change jobs. No one MUST work for X employer.

Add to that the business owner has the freedom to make rules for their employees. Most health care places, schools, and the military require many vaccines and have for decades.

The “freedom” lost for Covid vaxxes is a spin due to politics TBH.

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But there are exceptions - valid medical exemptions are being given. Some places are even allowing “religious” exemptions.

We are going to an arts event tomorrow that is requiring vaccine proof or negative PCR test to enter (and masks and social distancing). No one is being forced to attend if they aren’t comfortable with this private institution’s rules.

Yes, in your state.
There are counties/states where one cannot enter any indoor facility without s vaxx card.
And there is NO accomodation.