Vaccine reluctance & General COVID Discussion

I cannot discount the documents on the FDA website that declare that an ADE response to viral challenges is still uncertain once the vaccine wanes. That information is in the briefings because of results of past trials of the s-protein type vaccines. I do respect people’s choice to get the vaccines but at the same time, I assume that people would want to know the risks involved with doing so.

I haven’t argued the vaccine efficacy in the short term. It’s the long term issues that I’m more concerned with. Especially for healthy young people who have nothing to gain from getting the vaccine over getting Covid itself - they do very well with the virus so why add future (and current) risks on top of that? Yet, universities and businesses are beginning to require this still experimental vaccine for attendance and work. I think that is extremely short sighted and I pray that it doesn’t backfire in a tragic way.

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tell that to young people who are long haulers (and their parents). Not every young person walks away from a covid infection without long-term consequences

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Many young people who get it are long haulers - like my 20 something son. Reports that have come out have shown that even some (more than a handful) asymptomatic people show various damage inside their bodies.

So far, nothing at all with the vaccines has shown to be anywhere near on the same scale harmful as Covid itself. Not even close. Those who think they are better off getting Covid are deluding themselves. At the hospital where my son works they are worried about the effects from Covid sufferers down the road - how much reduced life expectancy will they have and how much could it overwhelm medicine with so many more needing various care for heart, lung, kidney, brain, etc, issues.

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Covid doesn’t seem like measles or chickenpox where most only get it once and then have lifetime immunity. It seems to be more like the flu where there are different strains and even if you had one strain you can still get another. The vaccine seems to be better at preventing illness from other strains.

My 15 year old nephew had covid (they think) in January. He now is suffering from migraines. Really hoping that when he can get vaccinated in Sept that he’s one of the long haulers who gets better with the vaccine.

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Some more recent discussions of ADE in connection with Covid vaccines.

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/12/antibody-dependent-enhancement-and-the-coronavirus-vaccines

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Many younger people (probably up to 30%) have after-effects after recovering from COVID-19.

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Other people have pointed out that many young, healthy people have lingering effects of Covid and we have no idea what the long term outcomes might be even if they weather the initial infection.

A couple other things they have to gain is not infecting vulnerable people in the community and helping to end the pandemic.

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But if the vaccines result in ADE that’s a very bad outcome for young (really all) people too. we should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time: discuss issues of long Covid or Covid damage to internal organs etc…and the possibility that there are unknown issues with the vaccine rather than just deflecting possibility of issues with comments about long Covid.

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Those responses about long haul COVID-19 in young people were in response to this claim that young people have nothing to worry about actual COVID-19 as a reason for them not to get vaccinated:

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Agreed young people do face risks. Some younger people can have lingering issues but not 100% of them. How many people could be affected by ADE? Could it kill you? As a young person (or an older person) I’d like to be informed about both of those possibilities especially if I’m more likely to die from one than the other. Just my opinion.

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ADE is just as much a possibility with the disease itself.

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Yes, have read if people getting covid a 2nd time and must worse the 2nd time than the 1st.

In a perfect world, everyone would like all the answers do they can make perfectly informed decisions. As it is, we have to work with the real world and it’s imperfections and make the best choices we can with the info we have.

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Sorry I’m confused. It can happen if you get Covid and get reinfected? I’ve read about it with Dengue but nothing about Covid 19.

According to https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/12/antibody-dependent-enhancement-and-the-coronavirus-vaccines , one way ADE can occur is through non-neutralizing antibodies. In a natural infection, the immune system may make antibodies that attach to various parts of the virus. Some attach to parts that stop the virus from being infectious (e.g. antibodies that attach to the receptor binding domain of the spike protein, which the vaccines induce; these are called neutralizing antibodies), but others may just attach to the virus without stopping it, or even increasing its infectiousness (non-neutralizing antibodies). If a natural infection results in a generated antibody population with relatively few neutralizing antibodies, but many of the kind that actually increase the virus’ infectiousness, that can allow a second infection to be more severe.

It is known that ADE is an issue for antibodies to some proteins of coronaviruses (nucleoprotein), but much less so for antibodies to the spike protein. Note that natural infection often does result in antibodies for the nucleoprotein. If it also resulted in too little neutralizing antibodies to the spike protein, then a second infection could be possible and worse.

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Thank you!

I think that some people either don’t have enough familiarity with history or have forgotten it. Rheumatic fever, whooping cough, polio, and other diseases caused long-term effects to many of my parents’ generation. The ones who survived (like my parents) carried those effects with them throughout their lives. I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that the organs affected by those diseases are what ultimately caused their deaths. Vaccines were a miracle to their generation.

I have a healthy respect for diseases like Covid, but I don’t accept things blindly and I do my research. It frankly amazes me that some people apparently assume that those who are choosing to be vaccinated are doing so without weighing the risks. I have a well informed primary physician and we’ve both done our research about this topic. I don’t expect anything less from the long-term posters on this board who I’ve come to “know” and respect. I’m confident that they’re carefully examining all the data they can get from reliable sources and are making the decisions that are best for themselves and their families.

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A few days ago I ran ADE by med school lad to see what folks in his field (in his area) thought. They think the chances for it are worse with Covid than the vaccine due to the type of antibodies each seem to produce.

The only way to avoid any possibility is to avoid getting Covid which would require being a hermit forever. We Creeklanders aren’t interested in that, so are going with our best odds.

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Yes I know I and others I know have done a lot of research. I am sensitive to an ingredient in the vaccines and had to weigh that as well. The biggest argument for vaccines is more related to others, and public health, than to myself. Especially the potential to serve as a reservoir for variants. I did delay my vaccine slightly to see what real world effectiveness was and also what problems might arise. I am about 6 weeks behind my age group.

I was a child during the polio epidemic. I have one friend who had braces, and the father of one friend was permanently in an iron lung. We were not allowed to go in swimming pools. I still remember lining up in the principal’s office at my small elementary school for the little cup of liquid polio vaccine.

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But note that this argument is only effective with those who actually care about others (particularly others beyond their immediate family and friends). People who do not actually care (much) about others can only really be swayed by “selfish” arguments, such as the (what should be obvious but often denied) fact that the known risks of COVID-19 are so much greater than the known and theoretical risks of the vaccines for most people (small numbers of people with specific medical contraindications are obviously special cases).

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In this case, helping others ultimately helps ourselves since minimizing spread and minimizing the development of variants via mass vaccination may be the route for everyone to ultimately return to some reliable form of normalcy.

Once I am fully vaccinated I wonder if there are volunteer opportunities to help people feel more comfortable with a vaccine, while acknowledging their concerns.

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