<p>Yes- every kid has preferences and every kid has a list of the things they absolutely DON’T want in a college. But I think it behooves a parent to do some reality checking on this -lots of kids don’t want an LAC until they actually sit in on a seminar or walk across the college green; lots of kids only want a big, bustling urban campus with lots to do until they see Northeastern and realize they want greenery and Georgian architecture and a babbling brook somewhere; lots of kids only want a school with a robust counter-culture until they visit Hampshire or Bard and decide they’d just like a school with a big arts scene (not the same thing- but for a suburban kid it may seem that way from the outside looking in.) So this kid is at the stage of “I don’t want single sex. I don’t want LAC. And I don’t want a slacker school” which means she’s going to kiss a lot of frogs before she finds what she wants.</p>
<p>I have a nephew at Purdue who swore nothing West of the New Jersey turnpike when they were looking at colleges. His sister went to Cornell after promising that she couldn’t live anywhere but a big city. The reality is that sometimes a kid recognizes quickly when a preference isn’t all that important, or sometimes the things a kid associates with a big city ( good vegan food and cosmopolitan people) can be had in a more rural area.</p>
<p>Agree with Calmom that the idea is not to nudge a kid towards a poor fit for the sake of perceived quality- but sometimes kids are looking at college with 17 year old eyes. A parent can point out that what seems “too far away” is only a two hour, direct and discounted flight on Southwest (vs. a 6 hour drive to the “closer” school- and then the parent has to head back another 6 hours).</p>
<p>D1 said she didn’t want to go to any school where she could see cows. Well, there were pigs and chickens at her school. D1 said the school had to be warm. Her school was wet and cold. </p>
<p>Page 10:
“She is not interested in small LACs, except maybe Lehigh or Colgate. I know that the collective wisdom here is that she HAS to get interested in them. It’s just not what she wants.” Why is everyone still talking about LAC’s?</p>
<p>I’m still wondering why the OP’s daughter thinks she doesn’t need to seriously consider lower-prestige schools, even if she is able to gain 200 points on the SAT or ACT equivalent. She’s 18th in her class and apparently has no remarkable EC’s. People on this site are telling IMO qualifiers, Siemens finalists, published authors, valedictorians, kids with state and national awards, that their chances aren’t that high, so I feel like I am missing something here.</p>
<p>@xiggi I think you misunderstood the point about APs and school rigor.</p>
<p>It is not about how many AP classes are offered - you are correct there, that is not a very good measure.</p>
<p>What colleges look for is how do kids do on the AP tests that are given, relative to the rest of the country. For example is a school typically has 60% getting 4s and 5s on the more difficult APs, where 20-30% nationally get 4s or 5s then the school would be considered strong.</p>
<p>Kids do change their minds. So it’s good, if one can afford it, to have them look at what 's out there. My friend’s DD hated their flagship U from the get go and it became her mantra as it was for a number of kids. Some ended up transferring there and those years later they had matured enough that they looked at things differently. Some kids do grow up and see where they were being close minded about some things. </p>
<p>What a privilege some our kids have to be able to put their noses up to some of these wonderful options that are available to so few. </p>
<p>But it can be a huge advantage to have them pick their schools for if and when things go wrong. I gave my kids a figure I’d pay–to school or to them. Two of them took every penny for choices that were much more expensive than other choices that were as good, or IMO better. But that was up to them. Yes, I’d pay double for them to go to UDel, UMD, a number of state schools over ours. </p>
<p>I agree fully with Calmom. However, I also am fully aware about the prestige talk that happens at many schools and crowds, if OP’s dd is there, and she’s a kid who is emotionally, mentally affected by this sort of thing it will mean some issues from them most likely. I have one who is an adult who to this day I cannot get to see things a certain way, feel a certain way that would so improve his life and so many other things. Another whose flaw is that he’s way over on the other side. I guess on average, I’m doing fine with the kids. </p>
<p>But, yes, if the talk is about big name schools, it can hurt. My close friend hurt terribly as her crowd, as well as her DD’s tended to be very much name college focused. That’s the school the girl attended. And her DD did not do so well test wise, didn’t do so well junior year, and basically was not top school material come senior year. She did not get into the schools that were as selective as her peers and it hurt. It hurt very badly, and in her case, she got the grades and transferred into a name school where she is now, and declares firmly that it’s every bit as important as her peers said She’s so much happier there then at her first college. It’ is an important factor to HER. </p>
<p>@mathyone
Agreed. This student could spend all summer schooling the ACT, get a 34 on the Fall test, and the most likely scenario would still be a rejection from all of the so-called prestige schools*(given the comments re outside of classroom accomplishments). The student seems over-represented in every category. The published 25/75 score ranges mean little and less for such a student.</p>
<p>OP
There are many parents who find themselves in your position during application time in Fall of senior year, or even worse, at decision time. You have a head start. My advice is to use that time to help your child get interested in a broader set of schools. It seems like you are already on this path. I have read your comments about Naviance, but surely there have been students at this high school with similar ranks and sub 2000 SAT scores. Talk to the counselor; find out what options these kids had. And don’t just cut off at top 5% when comparing. Many colleges might prefer a lower ranked student who maxed out on rigor (or a lower ranked kid who took all those unweighted band or orchestra classes, you get the gist). So my advice would be to include students at least a few percentage points higher in class rank in your comparison.</p>
<p>Good Luck!</p>
<p>*This is not to dissuade you from trying the ACT. It is certainly possible to improve the application considerably with a great ACT score, which could make all the difference for schools like Michigan, Wisconsin, etc. Also, it could make a difference in merit aid. I was just making the point about the super selective northeast privates.</p>
<p>Oh, I also agree, she absolutely should prep this summer and try the ACT in the fall. But, she should not be allowed to pin all her hopes on doing well there, because even if she is able to accomplish this, it really seems to me that even a big score increase isn’t even close to a guarantee this student will get in to a top name school. It will merely make her a credible candidate, like the other 85-90% who get turned away.</p>
<p>I think this may be the most important point to be made here. If OP’s daughter had the SAT scores she expected to get, she might be going in to this process thinking she was a match for the most selective schools and then suffered a huge disappointment next spring – as many of her classmates who scored a little higher on the SAT may yet experience.</p>
<p>D doesn’t need to give up the dream schools.</p>
<p>D can still apply to some of the most selective schools - she needs to understand that those should be considered reach schools for everyone. D needs to fill out her target school list with matches and safeties. </p>
<p>I responded directly to a statement. Read the quoted part in my reply. The AP are not insignificant but are hardly as important as some might think. And the strength of a high school is not necessarily measured in the average scores any more than in the number of AP courses offered. On the other hand, the SAT and ACT scores offer a better insight into the strengths of the student body. A school with 35 AP that cannot crack an average of 500 is a dismal one, even if the students average a 3.5 on the APs. The average AP scores reflect only a portion of the students at that school. </p>
<p>And, again, the candidates are measured in the context of their local environment. </p>
<p>And remember too. Any AP scores from HS senior year won’t even be received until after High School graduation. They will not factor into admissions at all. And at some schools…AP scores don’t factor into admissions anyway.</p>
<p>SAT and ACT scores are indeed a better indication of the strength of the student body - they represent, for lack of a better word, general ability.</p>
<p>AP (and IB) test scores are an indicator of how well the school teaches each given course. Taken together, the AP scores of the school represent how challenging the courses are in the top track in the school. It is one more data point to use.</p>
<p>Every data point answers a different question, taken together adcoms paint a picture of the student and try to compare kids across schools and across states.</p>
<p>“A school with 35 AP that cannot crack an average of 500 is a dismal one, even if the students average a 3.5 on the APs.”</p>
<p>Not every school has a homogeneous student body. That doesn’t mean they can’t have a good program for honors students with many AP classes and strong AP scores. </p>
<p>The average SAT scores also reflect only a portion of the students at the school. You really can’t compare these things unless all students are being tested.</p>
<p>Also, how well a school serves their average students and how well they serve their best or most needy students are all different things. A school can be very good with certain groups and not with others.</p>
<p>The year our school introduced a free SAT prep class for all low income students (and reduced price to the rest) our average SAT score went up 100 points. Did we suddenly become a better school? I don’t think so. </p>
<p>Our school is not serving the average and below average students as well as it should in my opinion, but there is a large group of students who do very, very well. By xiggi’s metric it’s a dismal one, but my kids graduated well prepared for the work in selective colleges.</p>
<p>It is conceivable that a school can be dismal (eg average SAT of 500, no AP scores).</p>
<p>An the “sub-school” that elite colleges are selecting from is an excellent one (eg much higher average SAT and high average AP scores)</p>
<p>From the communities perspective, the school has a problem. From the colleges perspective, and the perspective of the honors students, the school is doing a good job.</p>
<p>OP,
What is your D’s plan for her future? Many students of her caliber are planning to attend a Grad. School. For many fields in cases when Grad. School is in plan, name of UG is completely irrelevant. But it DEPENDS on the field of study. I did not read thru entire thread, too much.<br>
One thing about SAT / ACT that many overlook is to prepare correctly. By correctly I mean to have personal plan based on the student strong and weak academic aspects. My D. took SAT class and said that it was a waste of her time (and our money). She has developed her personal plan for the ACT preparation and did better on the ACT. As an example (which may not be true at all for your kid), my D. has identified that Reading is her weakest and there is no way she could improve it. Instead, she focused on improving Math score (her very strong subject) to compensate her low Reading score. Her ACT score was so in line with anticipated, it was hard to believe. D. was able to pull 33 while her Reading was only 28. This was entirely due to her personalized preparation. She prepared for one hour every day for 5 days right before exam day. She prepared ONLY math. She took both SAT and ACT once.
Going back to the field of study, which UG kid attends may be practically irrelevant for many (but there are few when it is important). The ones when UG is not important that I am familiar with are medicine (Medical School does not care), engineering (most ingeneers are hired from local college), IT (most IT are also hired from local college)
Specifically, D. is currently a 3rd year Medical student. She graduated #1 from private HS that does not even believe in APs as classes are taught at higher level than APs (which D. discovered while in college), but D. had few that were offered. She attended in-state public UG where she was on full tuition Merit award. Then she applied to very small number of Medical Schools and was accepted at 4 including top 20s.
U of M specifically was a dream school way back in middle school. But since we knew that she would not get any Merit award there as OOS, she did not even apply there. Beside the UG that D. attended. another private UG gave her very good Merit also - Case offerred around 27k/year. The others were all in-state publics and offerred much less. </p>
<p>I am not sure what the distinction that I am missing is! Again, I answered to a statement about students taking APs at a school where there was not a culture poisoned by the AP boondoggle (my words here.) The statement was:</p>
<p>
<br>
<p>I clearly disagree that a school that does not have many AP offered or taken is akin to a school with a lower reputation. My position is not different for the AP cousin, the IB program. The reality is that schools can be non-participant at both sides of the spectrum from the poorest schools to the most prestigious ones! In itself, the presence of absence of plenty of APs and plenty of reported scores means very little, and surely not enough to adorn a label onto the school. </p>
<p>That is my point. Now, if you believe that there should be nuances to describe particular schools, I would … not disagree. But that is neither a point I missed nor made! </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Doesn’t that agree with my position regarding the post I answered to? Aren’t we talking about students who do well on a few APs in an environment that is not very competitive? Isn’t that what happens at a school with disma average SAT scores and a subgroup directed to a selective AP/IB program that … might do well? </p>
<p>Do you know many schools that are supposed to be “college preparatory” that fail to have standardized tests such as the PSAT, SAT, or ACT? How many states are there that have mandatory testing? </p>
<p>About 3.3 million students are graduating from high school this year. This correlates pretty well with the sum of the ACT and SAT tests. Not a perfect correlation, but easily the deepest one that is available. </p>
<p>“I clearly disagree that a school that does not have many AP offered or taken is akin to a school with a lower reputation.”
my D’s HS as I have mentioned above is considered one of the best in our region. Kids travel there from other states on a daily baisis (sometime one hour one way). The school simply does not believe in calling class “AP”. My D. was offerred a Supplemental Instructor position in her college working for Chemistry prof. She did NOT have AP. She said she eneded up teaching many who had AP Chem in HS. The reason that she was offerred position was that she never had a grade in college Chem. class bellow 100+% (with extra credits) and kids started lining up to her (instead of prof. ) to ask questions. She said that her school taught Chemistry in Regular classes better than others were taught in AP classes. this is just one example.
AP or not does not make as much difference as the type of HS and it’s phylosophy. D’s school palce 100% of gradutes in 4 year colleges and very many end up going to Grad. Schools later, good number to Medical, Law schools.</p>