<p>What I’m talking about is providing context for the rest of an application. Obviously a kid that does well on APs is going to get credit for doing well on APs. A kid from a school with a history of low AP scores will be looked upon having gone above and beyond. I thought those points went without saying.</p>
<p>Colleges also use average AP scores to give context to the grades in AP classes. If a kid from a school with a history of good AP scores gets a B in an AP class, and a 4 on the test that is worth a lot more than a kid from a school with a history of poor AP scores who gets a 99% in the class and a 3 on the AP.</p>
<p>The second kids AP class will be looked at as a generic honors class, the first kids class will be looked at as something approaching a college level course. </p>
<p>“Do you know many schools that are supposed to be “college preparatory” that fail to have standardized tests such as the PSAT, SAT, or ACT?” Of course the schools have them. But you can’t compare averages when many students don’t participate. Why would students who are not going to college take the SAT/ACT? In our schools they do take the PSAT, at least they are supposed to, but I don’t know how many skip out on that–what is the point of competing for a scholarship you clearly aren’t going to win to attend college when you know you aren’t going to go? but those scores are not released so there’s no comparison to be made.</p>
<p>So, where is the disagreement with my rebuttal to the earlier post? Where is the distinction that my rebuttal missed? </p>
<p>Was my point not about … providing context to the rest of the application, considering that the application should describe the local environment? </p>
<p>I am still puzzled why you felt my earlier post did not address the statement to which I responded, and equally puzzled about where we disagree. </p>
<p>“Obviously a kid that does well on APs is going to get credit for doing well on APs.” - Not obvious at all. For example, many in pre-med programs are strongly advised to take all science classes from the very beginning. If they do not follow this advice, they may be in trouble later. D’s first Bio went thru AP material in the first 2 weeks and then they moved on. She listened to her advisor and took this class despite of 5 on AP Bio exam. She said that she would not be successfull in the following Bio classes if she did not take the first one as later material was based on the first class.
Do not rely on the AP class material, it is just another HS class. HS can teach only so much. While very high level of English can be acieved in HS, not so much in many science classes. </p>
<p>Where is there anything in that post about a culture poisoned by the AP.</p>
<p>The original post is talking about a school where kids take AP courses and either do not do well or don’t bother with the test.</p>
<p>In the eyes of an adcom this schools “AP” courses will be treated as regular classes as compared to a school where kids do well on average.</p>
<p>There is nothing in the original post about how many APs are offered. There is nothing in the original post about schools that are non participants in the program. </p>
<p>Perhaps we don’t disagree - I’m not sure, my note was simply that your conclusion wasn’t responsive to the scenario posed in the original post.</p>
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<p>Yes, but it still doesn’t relate to the original situation.</p>
<p>This is the scenario being discussed:</p>
<p>School (subgroup or not) with several (number irrelevant) AP courses. In general kids do poorly on these APs or don’t bother to test. What rigor is assigned to these courses by adcoms.</p>
<p>My answer is they are not considered very rigorous BUT if an a student gets a standout score they will get bonus consideration for either being exceptionally bright or for making an effort above and beyond what the school expects. </p>
<p>@Dreadpirit, that would be logical, but I’ve heard more than one admissions officer say they don’t care what score you got on the AP exam. I’m not sure if that’s true, but it seemed clear that they care that you have challenged yourself within the context of the school. My kids got all 5’s on the exams they took before senior year, and I like to think it helped them, but who knows.</p>
<p>Just looked up the AP figures - 36% of the class takes “at least one” and 79% “pass” (I assume that means at least a 3, not a 4 or 5 necessarily.) Almost half the school is on free or reduced lunch and it’s approximately 1/3 white, 1/3 African American and 1/3 Hispanic. 4% Asian currently.</p>
<p>Dreadpirit, this is going on and on. Let me try one more time and leave all the ancillary stuff out:</p>
<p>In response to A posting “So what if you are taking AP courses at a school where most of the kids don’t take the AP exam, or do not so hot on it?” B posted “It diminishes the reputation of the HS in the admissions officers’ eyes – and frankly, hurts the applicants”</p>
<p>To the statement posted by B, I replied with a pretty simple rebuttal. Here is its again!</p>
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<p>All the back and forth does not change my reply nor does it change what I replied to! My point was that one CANNOT generalize in such way. </p>
<p>I’m not sure that B and a 4 is really worth “a lot more” - or maybe that is just my wishful thinking. I too have heard from admissions that the score doesn’t matter as much as challenging yourself and excelling in your environment. If I had a choice of those 2, I think I would take the 99% and the 3 in the AP.</p>
It depends on the college. Some colleges don’t require submitting AP scores and/or say they don’t consider AP exam scores. For example, Stanford’s website states:</p>
<p>“As a result, we do not require students to submit AP scores as part of our admission process. AP scores that are reported are acknowledged but rarely play a significant role in the evaluation of an application. Grades earned over the course of a term, or a year, and evaluations from instructors who can comment on classroom engagement provide us the most detailed insight into a student’s readiness for the academic rigors of Stanford.”</p>
<p>In contrast, grades in AP or other advanced courses are not only considered, but are often one of the most important factors. Each year, the NACAC does a survey asking a large number of colleges what factors are “considerable importance” to admissions decisions, and each year the top two highest ranked factors in their survey are grades in college prep classes and strength of curriculum. </p>
<p>Fwiw, it was with Stanford in mind that I added my thoughts on the AP role in college admissions – as well as the example of schools that are very successful at Stanford without playing the AP cards. In addition to Data10 points (that confirmed what Thumper has said) the AP grades are often too late to make a meaningful difference. Accordingly, the grades obtained in such classes before the final semester of high school carry the most impact. </p>
<p>Further, the average number of APs among the admitted and enrolled students at Stanford is quite low. amd much lower than the 8 to 15 that are commonly discussed here. </p>
<p>Fwiw, there is a bit of redundancy in rewarding high grades in the AP and Honor courses. Because those classes typically carry an added weight, the students who have high wrighted averages will also be among the top percentiles in the class. To keep it simple, a high rank will also be a typical proxy for high grades in the weighted classes. </p>
<p>At the end of the day, the tenets of successful admissions at the most selective schools remain high GPA, a difficult curriculum (in its local context), high rank, excellent essays, unselfish and group ECs, and … like it or not, high SAT and ACT scores! The absence of one of those has to be balanced by extraordinary talent or circumstances. Without much of the latter, the best alternative is to create a more realistic list of reaches and matches. And, as we know, this should come after identifying the schools that represent financial and academic safeties. </p>
<p>However, I would not be surprised if many students make the decision to repeat or move on without much information beyond the AP score, rather than doing things like trying the college’s final exams for the courses allowed to be skipped. Poor decisions here could result in either wasting time and tuition repeating what one already knows, or getting too far ahead of what one is prepared for and struggling.</p>
<p>And I think that that is an excellent strategy for those schools. It’s a way to differentiate themselves and attract students like the OP’s daughter. Will it eventually have an effect on assessment of their image or “prestige”? I also wonder how students who do not include test scores are evaluated for merit aid. </p>
<p>I agree Elliemom. I don’t think it matters a whit as to selectivity or prestige, at least not in the current fevered climate. I notice though that many of the test optional or test flexible schools tend to be LACs. Am I wrong in that? </p>