Vocal performance: first-tier and second-tier

Parent Cafe
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<p>We parents who are academics think that we can research our way to success, for ourselves and for our children. I KNOW this is true because, heaven only knows, I have tried. I have consulted journals, professionals, catalogues, teachers, etc. ad naseum, trying to give my offspring every bit of information which can give them a helpful perspective and encourage wise decision making. In the end, as I am again and again reminded, nothing matters but their personal effort and their talent. None of us can do it for them, nor can we be sure they will act wisely upon the clues and information we so eagerly present to them. I do apologize if I was harsh. I have frequently been the silliest one of all. Each of our youngsters is very fortunate to have such caring, helpful parents. In the end, we may save them from some unwise decisions, but we cannot make it happen, but we have loved them and tried to help. </p>

<p>In a similar vein, i.e. the issue of prestige rankings, I have often thought about what would happen if there were an Olympics for musicians. Who can sing/play highest, lowest, fastest, slowest, loudest, softest, most fluidly, etc? Would any of these things be predictive of artistic success? But, the best of it would be that our musician children would finally have an internationally bestowed "hook".</p>

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<p>Just a few thoughts. I've only recently entered the world of undergraduate music (vocal and violin perfomance & music education interests)-- my D is a rising senior. One observation is that music performance is one of the only interest areas where you already have to be very accomplished to even begin studying at a college/university...</p>

<p>The advice she has received from professional musicians and music educators is to look more at smaller, high quality programs for undergraduate work and at the higher "tier" - CCM, Indiana, Florida State, etc for graduate training. The notion is that there will be far more performance opportunities at the LACs or programs that have a primarily undergraduate focus in music. That is the plan at this time. D wants a great music program, including great instructors for theory, conducting, etc. She also wants great professors in her liberal arts classes. </p>

<p>I said "ouch" when lorelei invoked the "research" solution. I've done hours and hours -- and I'm an academic... I confess. I do think it has improved my understanding tremendously and has helped me provide a framework and some homework from where D could launch her search more efficiently. Heck, it's how I found this amazing CC resource. But as stated earlier, the match (and getting in!) with the faculty member and institution is critical. In my research travels, I have "googled" dozens of accomplished performers and academic musicians/professors. I have found no systematic pattern of specific undergraduate institutions. Many, many successful performers have come from "no name" institutions for their early training. This doesn't mean they didn't have excellent training, but I see no evidence that the undergraduate institution either sets you or sinks you. </p>

<p>A second thought has to do with the broader education. For many students, there is an interest in getting an excellent liberal arts education along with a strong music focus. That tends to shift things around a bit in terms of the pool. </p>

<p>I am now more convinced than ever that there are dozens of very good undergraduate music programs. That's very good news. I hope I get through audition season without developing a tic... D will do fine, but she's the performer. Hanging out at the student union and then waiting until spring to know may be more than this mom can take... </p>

<p>A couple of other good exclusively undergraduate programs that have not been mentioned are St. Olaf and Illinois Wesleyan.</p>

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<p>D felt that St. Olaf was too choral focused for her. She went to music camp there twice and loved it, but ruled it out for college.</p>

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<p>Learn LANGUAGES, and choose schools where the language teaching is excellent. First of all, singers sing in those languages and are expected to know what they are singing. Secondly, they provide cultural background to what one is singing. Thirdly, lots of opportunities often exist abroad, and you need to take them as they come.</p>

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<p>St. Olaf does have an ensemble focus but has also nurtured some excellent solo vocalists who are singing professionally in NYC and other major metropolitan areas. If a student has no interest in ensemble singing, I would agree that St. Olaf would probably not be on the short list. If they do have an interest in ensemble performance or conducting, I would say it would be one of the top LACs for these interests.</p>

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<p>DePauw is another good, unsung school with a good voice department. (pun intended)</p>

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<p>I have heard some good things about University of the Pacific in CA. It's a bit far for us (as we would like to be able to see performances). Anyone else have any scoop on this program? The academics are not in the league with some of the other institutions in the discussion but I have no first-hand info.</p>

<p>Agree that DePauw looks like a good program.</p>

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<p>OK, let me rephrase the original question in light of a specific case. I'm not asking about "prestige" here - I'm asking about whether there is a particular value added in having participated in the resources of certain highly-regarded voice programs as opposed to others.</p>

<p>Several of the posters on this thread are suggesting that the one-on-one relationship with a very capable teacher is more important than the university department in which the teacher is employed or even whether the teacher is employed in a campus setting. Given this, verbage such as the following from Indiana University's Voice Dept. website is hard to understand:</p>

<p>"With 20 full-time faculty members, the IU School of Music Department of Voice is the largest voice department in any university school of music. It has consistently been ranked as the top voice department in the country. . . The emphasis is on a high level of performance and preparation for a professional singing career, and graduates of the program are known worldwide for the quality of their training. IU recently had four grand prize winners in the Metropolitan Opera National Council Auditions in three years. Many graduates enjoy careers with professional opera companies, and IU alumni can be heard on operatic stages from the Met to La Scala . . . In a newly arranged showcase, 30 opera companies are sending representatives to hear IU voice students perform on campus during the 2004 fall semester."</p>

<p>IU is clearly claiming that there is a tangible advantage to studying in their program. It seems to me that the above paragraphs suggest that if a student was studying with Prof. X at IU and Prof. X were to leave IU, the student's education in Voice would be diminished for the lack of association with their top-ranked department even if the teacher remained the same. Is this just empty marketing on the part of the university or do the resources of certain top programs truly make a difference?</p>

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<p>Good question. I will use one program that my son was accepted at and declined: USC Thornton School of Music for music composition. I am sure they have inroads for their students into scoring for tv and film. They only choose a few students a year. Does that mean that major composers for tv and film only come from this program. Of course not. Talent, good fortune, personality etc. etc. rise above the program. But, USC has a great reputation because of their teachers and their connections. </p>

<p>The same may be said about IU...I have heard great things about their program. But it is the person who makes it or not in the very competitive music business.</p>

<p>Another point, perhaps it is better to develop on your own at a school where you are not necessarily molded along the lines of a great teacher/great program. Where you may create your own vision of what great music can be. </p>

<p>I listened to the Stanford Commencement speech given by Steve Jobs last night. It was inspirational talking about commencement speeches. One interesting example was he dropped out of Reed College but then hung around and attended classes out of pure interest, one on calligraphy. His exposure to that class created the fonts that we now use on all computers...he learned about the beauty of special fonts and later used them when creating his computers.</p>

<p>I think what I am trying to say here is that to be an artist, it takes inspiration from many sources. I believe a broader education is better than one that is restrictive whether it be for music or science. In the end, success comes from following personal dreams, gut feeling dreams and not listening to voices of others.</p>

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<p>I do think that those performers who attend the largest music school have a more thorough idea of how tough the competition is and what the standard might be. I also think that many get lost in the bureaucratic and competitive struggles and potentially miss out on the nurturing necessary to develop personally. There are heavy personal politics in many music departments, especially voice areas. It takes a strong ego to walk out on a stage and sing, and that ego does not go away in the studio or amongst ones professorial colleagues. That personality type frequently does not function very well as a colleague and mentor. Many of the larger music schools do their hiring based almost solely on performance credentials. Again, where and what one sang does not make a good teacher. Some fine performers develop into excellent teachers, but it is not a given. The faculty in lower profile music departments are more likely to have been hired via a more academic vetting process, and they have advanced through the professorial ranks via more exacting examination of their skills as musicians, performers, teachers, and colleagues. Some of the more provincial music departments are themselves the source of the rising young academic stars. For instance, I know a man, professor at major conservatory, had a nice career, started teaching in small southern school, got some experience, and now he is at a major school, recruiting outstanding students, and doing quite well. </p>

<p>Graduates of larger programs tend to be a better package, and they are more sophisticated about what it takes. This is not to say that they are more talented, just put together earlier. They lose contests and roles all the time to better vocal talents. In fact, more is expected of the graduates of those programs, and they are NOT given the benefit of a doubt. I walked down the hall in front of regional MET judges and heard them discussing their winner to be, how he was such a great raw talent, and when they got him to NY and gave him some coaching, polishing, he had real potential. This was a Puerto Rican tenor singing in the New Orleans Regional. Well, a month later, I saw an Indiana University alumni newsletter touting this fellow, who was one of their graduate students, and the fact that he had won that regional MET audition. So this fellow had entered from his home, and they did not know he had had access to the training, coaching, polishing. Would he have done so well entering as an Indiana graduate student, I think not, based on the discussion I heard. BTW: I have never heard a word about the fellow since then, he did not make it, maybe because he really did not have the instincts to take advantage of all that training. </p>

<p>So while there are advantages of attending larger school, for an undergraduate, learning how to play/sing can be done anywhere, and getting a really good education gives one options if priorities change. Indiana is big, there are good professionals who have passed through its programs, and there are excellent resources there to guide the singers. There may not be much joy or nurturing in the process, but maybe that is not important to those most driven in their career pursuits. An undergraduate WILL NOT get the performance experience there available elsewhere, and getting ones stage legs is an important issue, too.</p>

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<p>Loreilei makes a good point...most musicians continue to develop during college AND some hit their real stride in college. DS's trumpet teacher says that the summer between his soph and jr. years in college was when HE became the musician he is (and he is well known and very highly regarded in his field...and the main reason DS chose the program he is attending). The relationship between the private teacher and performer is critically important. DS spends hours a week with this person and will do so for four years. I know other students who crossed schools OFF their potential lists because they took lessons with the private teachers prior to applying and didn't "click".</p>

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<p>Let me jump in the fray here. Son is a cello performance major at Eastman. Eastman is an excellent school with a great reputation. Son has done very well there and we all feel confident as he enters his senior year that he really does have a career ahead of him. That being said, his success is much more a product of his hard work and his teacher than anything else. A lot of top teachers teach at top schools. And these schools accept top students, but I don't think we can really say that the school attended is the reason that the student is successful. </p>

<p>Let me give you an example. One of the top cello teachers in the country is Janos Starker at IU. He has been there for many years. It is very difficult to get into his studio, especially as an undergrad. Many of the top performing cellists in the world today have studied with him at some point. So IU can rightfully claim that their students have won awards and have top positions in chamber groups and orchestras. However, those students didn't go to IU because it was IU, they went there to study with Starker. And many of them were highly accomplished cellists before they even walked through the door. </p>

<p>It is possible that my son's Eastman credential and the name of the teacher he studies with will get him invited for some auditions, but other than that, I don't know if it will matter all that much that he attended Eastman instead of some other school.</p>

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<p>D read this thread and made a couple of comments. She said the key thing is being comfortable at your school and with your teacher. Her voice teacher at Rice said that a lot of the students audtioning this year for Rice's graduate program (coming from other undergrad schools) didn't know what they were doing. When her undergrads leave Rice, they are prepared to go to a good graduate school. Rice has a number of voice graduate students from Whitman, who are very well-prepared.
Getting a BA does not prepare you for the field because the course requirements for the degree are so different than those for a BM.
Another advantage of a smaller program, D says, is that she is learning aural skills and theory from actual composers, and not from TAs. She has formed relationships with other faculty members in the Shepherd School and not just with her voice teacher. At IU (reported by her Interlochen roommate) hardly any of the teachers know you if you aren't in their studio.<br>
D says DePaul and DePauw have strong programs for undergraduate.</p>

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<p>DS says this is a strength of the Boston University programs (in addition to excellent applied faculty). We saw this when DS did an optional recital this year and the three main brass faculty all came to the recital and so did a good number of the brass students (as well as students studying other instruments and voice). DS looked at, and was accepted at some larger programs in the studio of his choice...but he wanted a place where he could get more personal attention and not be just a number. He feels his choice was perfect for him. Last summer he was at Eastern Music Festival and felt he was more than prepared to play with students from other more "prestigious" programs. He thanks his trumpet teacher and ensemble conductors at BU for that preparation.</p>

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<p>One of my d.'s mentors is the chair of the composition program at the Univ. of Oregon, the largest and most prestigious graduate program in composition on the west coast. Unasked, he volunteered that his best graduate students were not coming out of NEC, or Indiana, or Oberlin, etc., but out of Williams. (Doesn't matter - 80% of them will end up happily employed in the computer industry, or health care, or whereever.)</p>

<p>I don't think there are any easy answers to a question like this. You might, for example, get better training/teaching etc. at an Indiana, and less possibility of making a career of it, as you end up thinking of yourself as the little fish in the big pond. Or it might drive you to even greater effort. It might be the better school, and worse for a career - or vice versa.</p>

<p>I think it is a grave error in looking at ANY kind of college possibility to ask what happens to the best students at each of the schools. The best students at all schools - first tier to third tier - tend to do great wherever they go. The big question is what happens to the AVERAGE student - does the school bring out great things in them, or do they simply come to accept their mediocrity?</p>

<p>At any rate, I can only report what I know. The NEC, Rice, Indiana, Oberlin, etc. graduates competed for spots in our opera company (which pays pretty well for a little local company) (there were usually several dozen applicants for every role) with the graduates of the places I posted, and, over a three-year period, not a single one got hired.</p>

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<p>I can confirm that DePauw and DePaul are worth investigating for vocal studies.</p>

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<p>I don't know how voice "works" as my S is an instrumentalist. However, with instruments, different orchestras look for different sounds. My S studies in NYC, but does not really have an "NYC sound" -- he has studied in Europe, and in the south, and with teachers from the mid-west, so he is "aware" of the different sounds for his instrument, and is in the process of learning where he fits. </p>

<p>If it is a similar situation in voice, it makes sense that, for instance, mini's friend consistently prefers the sound coming out of certain schools. I would hesitate to assume, though, that this automatically makes those schools "better" overall. If Williams consistently places voice students in the west, it might mean that Oberlin places them in the mid-west, or the east, or Europe...</p>

<p>We come back again to "fit." In my S's case, it has become especially important to him to continue to seek out a variety of teachers (during summers, etc) to get complementing (as opposed to complimenting :) ) feedback. When his teacher asks him to change something, he needs to be able to evaluate himself whether the teacher is helping him overall, or trying to get him to match the NYC sound only.</p>

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<p>binx, it is so good to hear someone write this. My son has grown up with the european sound and has spent summers in the states and knows about the difference. I like the way you put it that your son is finding where he "fits." Also that schools have certain sounds depending on the teachers, for sure and the area in which they are located. It seems to me that this broader view/knowledge of the music world is at once more interesting as well as confusing for up and coming musicians or for that matter vocalists.</p>

<p>Like you've said, doesn't it just come down to finding someone you can really work with in a constructive manner? And with music, if you want to be good, you have to be working on it continually. Another interesting point, too many cooks don't necessarily spoil the stew!</p>

<p>I am very interested in seeing how my kid does this fall in the states and what advice he will get. He'll be in France this July studying for a month with a european group...I will have more to say in 6 months time.</p>

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<p>There are different "schools of singing", which historically have corresponded to the major nationalistic music genres. Think of the bright, dramatic brilliance which satisfies Italian opera; the molding of sound into the transmission of text which is appropriate for French melodie and opera; the "covered" German sound which can be a vehicle for the intimate German lieder as well as powerful Wagnerian singing; the somber, comforting sounds of English oratorio and the fresh simple sounds of English folk song reinvented in art song. These are gross generalizations, and it has become a different era, where most successful singers (academic and professional) must be able to satisfy a broad spectrum of repertory. More and more, the techniques of the different schools have been mined to develop techniques which make the voice capable of handling great breadths of style, range, tone, and diction. </p>

<p>You will, however, find that each educational institution consists of a faculty which may self-perpetuate itself. A faculty member will not be hired or get tenure if the sound both produced and taught is not pleasing and acceptable both aestheticaly and functionally to those already on the faculty. At a different school, different approaches and sounds may be quite acceptable. This is one reason why, for instance, seriously ambitious solo singers are not drawn to the "choir" schools, thinking the sound taught will be more blendable than brilliant, which may or may not be an accurate perception.</p>

<p>[As I understand it, there are issues of genre playing for the string instrumentalists, i.e. different styles appropriate for orchestral playing, chamber playing, solo playing. Certainly there are different things happening visually (from my amateurish observations): orchestral players seem stiller, more controlled physically, chamber players more "dance-like" with their bodies (even when seated), solo players (concerto and recitalists) more individually expressive.] </p>

<p>My hunch is that for singers, the differences in sound is less regional and more idiomatic to the mission of the particular school and the backgrounds of its faculty (which will have been coordinated to that mission).</p>

<p>I cannot find the original post about being on a campus where there are relationships with many faculty members, but I most heartily agree that is highly desirable. Where all of the students within an area of emphasis are known by all of the faculty, there is more nurturing and there is more accountability. There are more resouces for advice and referrals. It is one reason why I am so opposed to the major "graduate" conservatories for undergraduate voice majors. The more advanced singers are the "stars" and they do get all the attention. [This is less an issue for instrumentalists, because they are not so dependent on physical maturity for prowess in their art.]</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I have often thought about what would happen if there were an Olympics for musicians. Who can sing/play highest, lowest, fastest, slowest, loudest, softest, most fluidly, etc? Would any of these things be predictive of artistic success?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This point is a favorite of mine relating to education broadly. I think about it every time I hear Ms "jones" stand up in elementary or middle school and explalin why rote learning and "mindless" drill are not really worth doing. I believe that if there were such olympics, you would find that the most creative people are able to be so precisely because their "basic" skill level is discernably higher than most others. They might not win each category, but they would come in very high.</p>

<p>In any case, I agree its difficult to generalize about which programs are "best". Depends on the individual student, personality, what types of motivation does he respond to, etc. I think its a lot like an athlete chooosing what coach he wishes to play for, and what peers he wishes to be around. THese things are different from school to school, but often tough to discern from a distance.</p>