Some Guidance?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>My daughter is a current high school senior, who has just finished her auditions. She has been admitted to a few of the schools on the list below. She is 100% sure she wants to pursue a career in opera. She is a soprano. She's mainly interested in the following schools:</p>

<p>Appalachian State University
San Francisco Conservatory
Boston Conservatory
New England Conservatory
Peabody Conservatory
Oberlin Conservatory
University of Denver (Lamont School of Music)</p>

<p>Obviously, the teacher is the NUMBER ONE thing. We are planning to visit all of her top choices. HOWEVER, we are very concerned about the number of performance opportunities at some of these schools for undergraduate voice majors. We do not want our daughter to attend a school where she will never get to even perform in an opera because of the extremely large amount of graduate students! She has fallen in love with several conservatories already (and has been admitted), but we are concerned that she will get no performing experience as an undergraduate if she goes to some of these schools. Obviously, undergraduates at Oberlin get lots of experience. But what about at Boco, Peabody and San Francisco? Would it perhaps be better for her to attend Appalachian or DU and get more performance experience? We have heard that Boco tends to offer more performance opportunities for undergrads. Is this correct?</p>

<p>As you can see, my daughter is very torn. On one hand, she adores Peabody. On the other, she is concerned that she would never see the operatic stage at a prestigious school like that. Can she be successful if she attends one of these fancy conservatories with lots of grad students? It seems to me, her heart is telling her to go to places like Peabody, NEC and San Francisco.</p>

<p>Also, if anyone could give us some info on the overall quality of the programs above, it would be much appreciated. Her main three factors in deciding where to go are 1. the teacher, 2. performance opportunities for undergrads and 3. the overall quality of the music school and students.</p>

<p>Thank you in advance for the help. This has been a VERY stressful process, but deciding has proved to be even more stressful!</p>

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<p>Gosh, where do I begin. All the same thoughts for Son. Our added complication is getting a solid academic degree at the same time. In researching the schools, I felt Oberlin was the best choice. They are undergrad only, so no competition with grad students for roles. Oberlin VP students are well represented in Grad Schools.</p>

<p>Now for a digression into performance opportunities: Yes, nothing can replace the opportunity to be a lead in a opera. However, most undergrads are NOT physically capable of being a lead in a major opera production, without doing damage to their voice. Thus, being in the Chorus and being around students with more advanced voices is a benefit in and of itself. It gives the kid something to strive for. Also, if they learn a piece too young, while they may physically be able to sing it, it may cause “muscle memory” that they may never be able to get over when they would like to perform the piece professionally. Thus, I have come to the conclusion that the ability to have a major role in an opera production is nice, but not necessary. All the schools will have performance opportunities for undergrad. It may not be main stage, or it might be Opera Scenes. I think that is enough for undergrad. They will be spending lots of time in Grad School and Young Artists Programs to get more substantial stage experience.</p>

<p>ASU, BC, Peabody: don’t know anything about them.</p>

<p>SFC: One of the 10 or so common app for conservatories, classical singer HS competition school, so I’m guessing they are good. However, they are conservatory only, so we took a pass.</p>

<p>NEC: Conservatory only. Can’t major in Opera as an undergrad (not the worst thing in the world). Son would do it only if he makes it into the NEC/Harvard program.</p>

<p>University of Denver (Lamont School of Music): Spoke with them at length at Classical Singer competition. We were impressed. If they were not so far away, we would have considered them.</p>

<p>Go for the school with the best voice teacher. Performance opportunities is secondary at the college level. I would even put it after quality of the school. In some respects, performances can get in the way of learning. For the past year, my son has been learning songs for auditions, not necessarily songs that will help his voice to develop. The quality of the school will help the student learn all the other things they need to know: Music theory, music history, diction, etc.</p>

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<p>i always hesitate till ds makes a choice. but he really did not like NEC at all…he is a VP MM prospect, but frankly he didnt like the school, teachers etc. He was really unimpressed with th program …plus I guess he actually hated the area of boston.</p>

<p>It really is such a personal choice in the end. That school would be perfect for someone else!!</p>

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<p>A past thread on App State: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/398794-appalachian-state-vocal-department-how-reputable.html?highlight=appalachian+state[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/398794-appalachian-state-vocal-department-how-reputable.html?highlight=appalachian+state&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>It’s hard to tell a young singer that the reason that she may not have the opportunity to perform on stage is because she is not physically ready. They come out of a high school situation where they had the strongest, best voice around campus and now face competition with a group of more mature and experienced singers. My D chose a large university with a highly competitive grad school. By the time she was a senior, she was cast as a lead in an opera. It was due to having a great supportive teacher. THAT’S what your D should be concentrating on. Which school has the best teacher for your D. After that the opportunities will come. She has plenty of time. (but I KNOW—try telling a high school senior THAT)</p>

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<p>Your daughter seems to have decided on the conservatory route. The conservatories on that list are much better known places than the universities, which likely were her ‘safeties’.</p>

<p>Oberlin, Peabody, and NEC are all top notch, very venerable ‘names’. San Francisco and Boston conservatories are a bit behind in terms of program prestige. However, I would have to guess that at non of the schools would she really get any leads in a major, fully-staged (w/ orchestra), opera production; as I believe it is just about common practice at all music schools (including universities) to only do such programs with grad students. More likely, she’ll probably participate in some semi-staged ‘scenes’ recitals every semester, and might be a part of a full production (but with only piano) of a lighter, more introductory opera (Flute comes to mind) in her 3rd or 4th years.</p>

<p>BoCo is not usually spoken of highly amongst the classical music circle. I would advise against going. San Fran seems to have a decent program, but is still not on par with the big time conservatories. I love the city though. Oberlin is fantastic, and very well regarded. The overall university and the music department are both great. Also fantastic is NEC - and Boston is a wonderful place as well. Have you seen NEC’s Jordan Hall? An absolute marvel of architecture! Peabody will let your daughter take classes at JHU, but make no mistake, day-to-day life at the Institute will most certainly be just like any other all out independent conservatory. Baltimore is a rather weak city.</p>

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<p>Recall that Oberlin has only a handful of grad students, mostly in highly specialized programs. They cast their operas entirely with undergrads. Some of the leads in their upcoming Magic Flute (with full orchestra) are sophomores, for example. They nearly always double cast to reduce the strain on young voices and provide more opportunities for singing lead roles.</p>

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<p>Hello! I am a sophomore at Oberlin and one of the sophomores cast as a lead in Magic Flute. I think that Oberlin is a great place to study as an undergraduate singer. I have had so many wonderful opportunities, singing in the chorus of the fall opera, singing The Queen of the Night in Flute and I will be singing Eve in The Creation at the end of the semester. Add on to that opera scenes, departmentals and a whole bunch of other amazing opportunities that I have had here. I really feel that I am in the right place.</p>

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<p>Stephmin-</p>

<p>I’m sorry but I would completely disagree with that statement about non-grad students getting good roles in operas. At Northwestern (not one of the schools being discussed I realize but an example nonetheless) they give leads to Juniors and Seniors all the time. Yes they do compete with grad schools, but sine there are way more undergrads, the grads can’t possibly get the leads all the time, not with 3 fully staged productions a year as well as opera scenes. </p>

<p>I think it just depends on the school you are looking at, and their view on young voices singing opera, vs “voice performance” at places like NEC that don’t have an opera major at all for young singers. Since I’m looking at their grad program, it’s so interesting to me that even still on the grad level they have an opera “certificate” or a special program that you do 1 year of- even on the grad level they don’t major in opera performance. </p>

<p>In terms of the question at hand, I would say go for the biggest name with the best teacher. So you don’t want to go to Julliard to study with a grad student (I don’t know if this happens or not, I never applied I just picked it because it has a famous name) but at the same time the name of your school always helps. I know it isn’t fair, but people pay attention when you say you went to NEC, or Peabody, or Eastman or something. So I’d say if you can, get the teacher that’s right for you AND the brand name, if you can possibly do so.</p>

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<p>Hi Beci316 – it’s me again. I shared with my daughter some of the comments from the other people on this thread. Her response was that if a program was geared toward undergraduates rather than graduates, faculty would select operas appropriate for younger voices. I don’t know enough to debate that point with her, but you might. With regard to your last comment, I thought that the most important thing was for a young singer (or other musician) to find a professor with whom they could work and progress; that it was most important to save money for graduate work. So, why is the brand name so important for undergraduate school? When you audition for graduate school is the name of your undergraduate school all that important; or isn’t the audition the number one criteria. So I guess I’ve raised a question that might deserve a whole new thread – what is different about masters degree application processes and undergrad application processes? There I got it all out! Thank you!</p>

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<p>All that matters for graduate school auditions is how well you sing, though you do have to have a 3.0 average for the graduate school academic admission. Where the singers went to undergraduate school is totally immaterial, if they have good vocal talent, sing well (good timbre, control, range, projection, flexibility), have good sense of style and languages, are musically well prepared, and have good performance skills. A lot to prove in a 15 minute audition!</p>

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<p>I would never think of “Flute” as a lighter, more introductory opera… Certainly there are some roles appropriate for younger voices, the spirits, Papagena, etc., but the rest take mature singers. Casting/singing Osmin and the Queen of the Night is a challenge, and singers who can reliably and appropriately satisfy those roles will find good work. Even the Three Ladies require mature voices, cast with heavier voices in most opera houses. Tamino and Pamina have demanding arias, and Papageno requires a strong dramatic talent in a lyric baritone. There may be younger singers who can get through some of the roles, but this is not child’s play. This is where it is appropriate for a university or conservatory program to use older graduate students for these more demanding roles and a few undergraduates in those shorter, lighter roles.</p>

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<p>I agree with lorelei, but just wanted to point out that Osmin is the basso role in Abduction whereas she very likely meant Sarastro in Flute. Both are quite demanding roles that need acting ability, strength in the very low register (down to low D, nearly 2 octaves below middle C for Osmin and almost that low for Sarastro) and, particularly for Sarastro, a commanding presence. I have heard undergrads who could get through these roles, but it takes a fully mature voice to master them.</p>

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<p>Thanks, BassDad, mea culpa…I was thinking bass, and it is Sarastro, not Osmin. Sarastro is more sustained than Osmin, all the more likely to inspire inappropriate efforts to beef up the sound…a bad idea low as well as high!</p>

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<p>My D is a freshman VP major at Peabody. While she did not make an opera this year, a number of her classmates did. I didn’t get the impression that the OP was asking about whether undergrads get cast as leads, but whether they have the opportunity to perform; at Peabody they do.</p>

<p>I would be happy to try to answer any questions you have about Peabody, soccerstarmom23, or to put your D in touch with mine if she’d like to talk to a current student. Feel free to PM me if you’d like.</p>

<p>For what it’s worth, my D is very happy she chose Peabody. She likes her teacher very much and loves to be immersed in the music. As is always noted, not every school is for everybody. We feel blessed that she landed in the right place. </p>

<p>All the best to the families who are about to choose programs! What a process!</p>

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<p>True. I spoke with a professor at Lawrence Univ (undergrad only), and he said when they choose Operas, they have to think about who could perform each of the roles. Many times, they hire someone to sing the lead because it would not be good for their students to do it.</p>

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<p>Ideally, you want a top professor at a top school. However, given the choice of a top professor at a mediocre school, and a mediocore professor at a top school, go with the professor. The school adds a lot to the experience. Being around better singers helps everyone sing better. Cirriculum tends to be better designed. etc.</p>

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<p>From what I hear, all they care about is if you can sing. But some undergrad schools can make your Grad School life easier. They will prepare your better with music theory, languages, etc.</p>

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<p>From the student’s perspective, it seems that the “process” is fairly similar (longer audition at the Grad level). However, from the School’s perspective, there is much less “guess work” at the grad level. Even though the voice doesn’t mature until the 30’s, there is much less “potential” the school has to guess the student may have at the Grad audition than at the Undergrad audition. There is also maturation that occurrs around age 19/20 that is one major stage a singer’s voice goes through.</p>

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<p>Thanks OperaDad – I appreciate the insight.</p>

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<p>It is true, you cannot tell how a voice which presents at age 17-18 will develop. Some who seem very talented never progress at all, or deteriorate in some way. Others who are quite unimpressive as “voices” but who show some other spark, a special lyricism of phrasing for instance, emerge as major talents with super instruments. Additionally, you cannot tell how a freshman will develop as a student once they are out of high school, what kind of discipline they will have with their studies and life style, how much the freedom of college and dorm life will distract them. Vocally, there tend to be significant changes at around age 20 in the female voice, probably a couple of years later in the male instrument, generally speaking. The higher and lighter the voice the younger the instrument will mature…so a lyric coloratura or coloratura will be expected to have her act together, fully functional range, etc. by the early 20’s., but a dramatic or lower voice voice will be excused if the top is not all together collected and consistent until the late 20’s, even early 30’s. It is not a terrible idea for a female singer who has a denser color to sing as a lyric mezzo until the maturity of the coordination allows consistency in the top, and there is lots of repertory, even opera roles, which are done by either sopranos or mezzos (Rossini and Mozart roles come to mind). For males, tenors tend to mature earlier than baritones.</p>

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<p>To Key of H-</p>

<p>Hi! I love these chats we have :)</p>

<p>“If a program was geared toward undergraduates rather than graduates, faculty would select operas appropriate for younger voices.”
– I would agree AND disagree…lol I think that a program that doesn’t have a lot of options in terms of grad students would be careful to choose operas that aren’t insanely difficult, because they would certainly want their younger students to perform them well and not destroy their voices. And yet, they do want to give their students the experience of performing in a “real” opera. Not that there are operas that are fake, but rather that they will choose a full-fledged opera and cast young singers in the chorus rather than do…say…a performance of scenes so everyone gets a big role. And depending on how many operas they do a year, that makes a difference. At NU, the fall and winter operas are smaller, and usually less challenging, whereas the spring opera is the big one where they pull out all the stops. So the answer is both yes and no. But probably mostly yes. Did that help???</p>

<p>“I thought that the most important thing was for a young singer (or other musician) to find a professor with whom they could work and progress; So, why is the brand name so important for undergraduate school?”
– Yes the professor is the MOST important thing, but if you think about it this way, well-known professors are probably going to be at big, brand-name schools. Notice that I didn’t say the best professors, but the most well known ones. (though often times people are well known for a reason) So if you can get a famous teacher at a famous school, that’s the goal. It’s better to work with a good prof at a mediocre school than a mediocre prof at a great school, but if you can, the name helps. It’s like getting you in the door at an audition. Yes, they will hear people who come from small schools, but brand-name schools leap off of the page on a resume, so they think more highly of you as you walk in the door. Then you sing and you could change their mind, or not. So your voice is most important, but take a brand-name school if you can get one and believe you’ll be happy/successful there. </p>

<p>When you audition for graduate school is the name of your undergraduate school all that important; or isn’t the audition the number one criteria.
–Again yes and no. In this business it’s all about connections. The market is flushed with exceedingly talented voices. So there has to be something that sets you apart. So if you go to a brand-name school and study with a famous professor and walk into a grad audition, your professor might know the faculty, put in a good word, etc. The faculty will perhaps be more excited to speak with you, and will probably talk to you longer. This gives you more opportunities to sell yourself. So of course the audition matters. If you suck, they won’t take you. But they assume that you probably aren’t going to suck if you went to a brand-name school (not always accurate, but their assumption anyway) and they will probably know more about you and what you did at school. For example, if I’m auditioning someone who went to Eastman and someone who went to UC Davis (I picked a school I know nothing about, once again, not a comment on the merits of a UC Davis education) then I’m going to know the background of someone who went to Eastman. I’ll at least have heard of the person they studied with, I know what kind of classes they needed to take, and I am more able to judge if they are good, or if they are at the bottom of the pack in what Eastman has to offer me in terms of prospective grad students. I’ll know what classes they took, and I’ll know how hard the curriculum was and that gives me some knowledge of what an A on a transcript means. </p>

<p>So basically, everything matters. What school you went to, who you studied with, your age, you’re grades, as well as your audition. So the more things you can give them, the better off you’ll be.</p>

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<p>Famous does not equal good - especially for undergrads. We have heard - from students of those teachers - horror stories about famous teachers. My D was given many suggestions for well known teachers - quite often with the caveat to consider them only for grad school. Some have no interest in teaching undergrads - they don’t want to work on the basics. They are over it so to speak. Some have studios that are so full of drama that it becomes a miserable experience for those who have not developed the thickest of skins. Choosing a teacher while the technique is still developing is a completely different process than choosing one for polish. Go to the forums where the professional singers post and it is shocking how many felt their voices needed rehabbing after undergrad.</p>