<p>Help! It is time to write the deposit check, and my kid is stuck. He is an undecided major, leaning towards enviro sci/poli sci/pysch. He is musical, artistic, and a good all around student. Having engaging teachers matters to him. Here is what is in front of him:</p>
<p>William & Mary: $45,000 a year - no scholarships. He likes campus, is afraid that he won't succeed here - academics might be too hard, students might be too competitive</p>
<p>University of Pittsburgh: is in-state; feels comfortable to him, doesn't like the party school aspect, doesn't want to go to school with 30 kids from his high school; thinks the honors program isn't all that special</p>
<p>Northeastern: Got great merit scholarship, plus $6,000 stipend to use toward a co-op in Europe, plus invited to apply for music scholarship. He does not like the feel of the campus - no 'green'. he does like the co-op calendar.</p>
<p>Ultimately he wants to go to law school. Establishing critical thinking skills is important. He is a liberal arts kid, in my humble opinion, looking for a place to grow. My gut says W&M, but is it worth an extra $20K per year?</p>
<p>Thanks for any light you experienced parents out there can shed....!</p>
<p>My son is currently happily attending Northeastern. Only your son knows how important the campus is to him. If living in a city does not appeal to him, then Boston is probably not the best choice. On the other hand, saving 80K is no small thing, especially since it looks like grad school is in his future. </p>
<p>Can you afford the 80K or are you looking at loans? If you can easily afford it, why not? But if it’s loans or a struggle financially, then I would factor that in.</p>
<p>OK…full information…I have a phD from Pitt, lived there almost 4 years and taught the undergrads 20 years ago. My son is at CMU and I think Pittsburgh beats London and Paris hollow…NY isn’t even in the running in terms of challenging Pittsburgh as an interesting city, easy to get around, great art and music, CHEAP, and good food. Other info…I live in northern virginia and WandM is school of choice for most parents after UVA. I visited Northeastern with son but with an eye for fine arts/dual major liberal arts along with tufts and SMFA. </p>
<p>Pitt–Not a bad school but kid needs to make academics priority and not get distracted by the dumb/party/sports/anti intellectuals that abound at pitt. Got to love pittsburgh but I sympathise about wanting to break away from HS but Pitt is a huge school. Personally, I found that the general student population was very average but there were some definite sparks of genius. There are some centers of excellence–study abroad, foreign languages, etc and some really, really great professors. A motivated kid can really shine at Pitt…</p>
<p>W and M…my son would have preferred torture and any school other than WandM – our impression of the kids who go there is that is a lot like Washington and Lee conservative, grind kind of mind set of kids (many pre professional), and greek life is very central to social life. I must say…I am surprised your gut says WandM…beautiful old campus but how could anyone contemplate going to WandM in the cultural wasteland that is middle virginia…? really? especially if your son likes music? Kids from our hs also bemoan that it is a bastion of northern virginia elites and HS cliques continue there too. I am sometimes tempted to let D apply there to take advantage of the instate tuition and she would love the conservative greek types …she is likely pre-law or business (I know…weird…we think our D is some sort of test…so totally different from the beatnik/hippies that we and S are…). We have to ask ourselves, is it worth saving on tuition to have a daughter come out liking the Tea Party? tough …</p>
<p>Northeastern…Well…it is in boston, there are a million schools and most have some type of sharing arrangement so you can take courses in alternative schools…the coop thing…wow! does your son like seafood? </p>
<p>I am being a bit tongue in cheek …if your kid wants to do grad school…DONT take on debt at WM…he should go to pitt or northeastern determined to excel and be a stand out student…grad school will be a lot cheaper and easier this way. If, instead, he wants to go to DC to be a junior staff person for a republican congressmen before becoming a lobbyist…well WandM will do just fine but think of the pressure on his ethics with the debt load he will be carrying…thus lobbying will probably be in his near rather than distant future…joking…sort of</p>
<p>Is it too late for one last visit to boston? It is spring…soo beautiful …plenty of parks. Much as I love pittsburgh, I can sympathise with your S wanting to break out of the local scene …</p>
<p>DS is at Northeastern in a tech field (CS). But - they get free admission to the Museum of Fine Arts across the street; symphony is on one corner of campus; BU Theater on another edge of campus; House of Blues in walking/transit distance. </p>
<p>DS did NOT want a city. It was his first college looking parameter. Then he figured, heck, if he’s ever gonna live in a city, it might as well be while at college. He really does use the whole city as his neighborhood. Downside: there are sirens almost constantly. Police cars, ambulances (medical centers 1/2 mile down the road).</p>
<p>But. He is enjoying his time there, is challenged intellectually and stretching into city living. NEU’s programs for international study look fabulous. My biggest complaint is that the CS kids can’t really spend a semester abroad without losing their tech threads. We might just encourage him to skip a coop and do a semester abroad in a completely non tech field. Expensive but his merit $$ could support it!</p>
<p>There are green areas in Boston but not adjacent to Northeastern. One can walk to the Boston Commons and the Boston Garden (it’s a good walk) and just hang out on a weekend when it isn’t too cold. There are also many parks and gardens in the suburbs of Boston that are reachable on the MBTA.</p>
Oy. fineartsmom, I appreciate that you live in VA and know a lot of students at W&M, but I don’t recognize the school at all from what you’ve posted here. I highlighted this particular comment because it’s most at odds with what I know of the school after having two daughters there over the past 10 years. I don’t want to derail this thread by launching into a defense of W&M (not that it really needs my help to attract a great applicant pool each year). But Greek life at W&M is much, much more low key than you’ve portrayed it - approximately 30 percent of students participate, meaning that 70 percent do not. The big news story on campus this month is the vigorous student-mounted Living Wage Campaign on behalf of campus workers. Several kids were arrested last week during a sit-in - so there are some types you might find more acceptable, after all.</p>
<p>The arts are strong at W&M, and their music program is respected and hosts exceptional guest artists each year. I’ll grant that you’re not going to find the kind of vibrant arts scene in Williamsburg that you are in Pittsburgh (which I like a lot, too) or Boston. However, students from all over VA are well-represented in the student body - I have to disagree with the hs students you’re quoting who describe it as “a bastion of northern Virginia elites.” And we can’t prove this one way or the other, but I’m going to attest that there is not a critical percentage of “conservative, grind kind of mind” students at W&M. And let me add - I’ve noticed that introducing the phrase “Tea Party” in any thread on CC, no matter who does it or for what purpose, never improves the quality of the conversation.</p>
<p>OP - much as I love W&M, the price tag is certainly in “ouch” territory for OOS families. I’d say it’s absolutely worth the money if you can afford it. If your son has law school on the horizon and money is a factor, he might want to take advantage of one of his other excellent possibilities.</p>
<p>I love W&M. My son is going to Pitt so if yours ends up there, PM me and we’ll catch a coffee together. I am afraid about him going there for the reason he doesn’t want to go there. So many kids will already know each other, and my son will have to work a little harder as he will be from OOS. I guess at W&M that would be your son’s situation.</p>
<p>But he loved Pitt. It was such an eye opening experience to him and it just had everything he wanted in a college–forget the campus. You are so lucky that it is in state for you. We’ll be paying the OOS premium. </p>
<p>Son also applied and was WL at NE but he wasn’t that interested in it. He thought Pitt was far more vibrant, exciting with many more amenities, university driven.</p>
<p>Wow, so much to think about! I had been focusing exclusively on the caliber of the professors as the primary criteria. DS is bright - a deep thoughts kind of kid. WOuld love for him to spend the next 4 years or so immersed in the exploration of his thoughts with quality educators leading the way… </p>
<p>Is W&M really that conservative? That could be quite problematic for my ‘save the world’ kid. I was also not aware that they were so Greek. Frats are a big no-no for my kid; having some is okay - but if that is how the majority of the campus entertains itself, he will not be happy. Can anyone verify/deny the ‘young Tea party’ comments of fineartsmajormom?</p>
<p>Personally, I love NE. What a great opportunity - to graduate in 5 years with 1 1/2 years of relevant job experience, and to have considerable interview experience on top of it. DS reacted to the closeness of the campus. It kind of freaked him out. As an aside, I did not care for several of the professors that we talked with on admitted students day. They complained about admin, to us, complete strangers. The Music Department teachers (3 of them) did not know how a kid could try out for the pep band. Unsettling. </p>
<p>Pitt. Hmmm. It felt, I dunno, ordinary, i guess. I was unimpressed with the admin folks who presented on Admitted Students Day. I was unimpressed with several financial aid/admin folks that answered the phone. I never got the sense that anyone at Pitt actually cared if my kid showed up there. I am afraid that he will get lost in such a pool. I also get the sense that they are selling the heck out of the school - we have probably received 50 pieces of mail from Pitt at this point. But, I agree with fineartsmajormom in several respects - Pittsburgh is a perfect sized city for suburban kid ready to venture into the urban lane. I also agree that making your years as an undergrad stand out, well that will go a long way. If the profs are decent, perhaps this choice will make the most sense, as long as there is a climate supportive of those who aren’t Greek, and don’t party. My kid is not a prude; he just doesn’t want his social life to revolve around alcohol.</p>
<p>Keep the thoughts coming - it was my hope to write the deposit check tonight, but I can always wire transfer to buy more time…</p>
<p>Frazzled - your comments were helpful, too! thanks!</p>
<p>You said: University of Pittsburgh: is in-state; feels comfortable to him, doesn’t like the party school aspect, doesn’t want to go to school with 30 kids from his high school; thinks the honors program isn’t all that special</p>
<p>Since you use the word “comfortable” sounds like Pitt is the place for your son. I’m assuming he was admitted to honors, which will give him the option to take honors course for a challenge but overall he will be in the top tier of students so he won’t feel overwhelmed by pressure like at W&M where the school is filled with high achievers</p>
<p>There’s lots of great arts and culture in Pittsburgh which he should like. In a school with 15,000 undergrads the fact there are 30 kids from his high school won’t matter. Partying is a personal choice I don’t think anyone will force him to party. There are plenty of pre med and engineering students at Pitt who will be cracking the books. Pitt has a great philosophy dept which would be an excellent major for a pre-law student and will enhance his thinking and analytical skills.</p>
<p>Plus- with the IS cost of Pitt you will have lots of money left over for law school, study abroad, etc.</p>
<p>I tell you, as a former partier at Pitt, I made it through in Neuro and Biology and went on to get my PhD. The parties are there if you want them, but it is not a overriding part of the culture. It is easy to find the serious side, in fact, students are a lot more serious than when I was there based on the admission statistics. The student population that Fineartsmajormom had 20 years ago has dramatically improved academically, and you can examine that via commondata sets that are on-line back to 96. I found Pitt to be a very well rounded school, probably because it was in the city, it offered something for everyone or any mood. And on top of that, it still doesn’t change the quality of the faculty or instruction. I think he is underselling the Honors College too. Don’t let the open membership fool him, it really delivers a lot if you get involved in it. It is also extremely productive at grooming students for scholarship awards.</p>
<p>fineartsmom, I’m not clear what the purpose was of your post. I am from Pittsburgh, have a Master’s from Pitt with a CMU grad husband. Great that your son is at CMU-apparently he is above all the kids going to Pitt. Pitt is fine,cptofthehouse. Your son will meet lots of great kids from all over at Pitt. fineartsmom, I now live in Virginia. Neither son had interest in William and Mary because they preferred bigger schools. I’ll leave it at that. Why you feel the need to insult fine schools like Pitt and William and Mary is beyond me. I hope you are just having a bad day. You say some of this is tongue in cheek. Frankly, I think you seem to think you’re funnier than you actually seem to be. Good luck to the OP with the decision.</p>
<p>“A public institution, College of William and Mary was founded in 1693. College of William and Mary offers a Greek system, where 29.0 percent of the student body is involved in a sorority and 25.0 percent is involved in a fraternity.”</p>
<p>I’m sorry to hear about your experience with NE professors. I will say that, in my opinion, NE is set up more for the self-starter kind of student and most students arrive knowing what they want to major in which surprised me as my son arrived undecided. For what it’s worth, my son has really liked his professors and he got to know two of them well enough to ask for job recommendations from them during the first semester of his freshman year. </p>
<p>I know nothing about Pitt but based on what you’ve said, I’d lean towards William and Mary (if we had the money on hand) except that it is conservative. I don’t think the Tea Party is the most popular political group on campus but it’s not a bastion of liberalism either.</p>
Can I deny them … again? Her post has my blood pressure up a bit (“joking - sort of” notwithstanding) because I’ve noticed how often opinion is taken as fact on CC, and her comments don’t accurately reflect what I know about W&M. And, for what it’s worth, one of my W&M kids is quite “save the world” herself, and the other couldn’t be less of the “grind kind of mindset” described by fineartsmom. </p>
<p>I don’t know how to prove that W&M is a philosophically diverse community with a real commitment to service and the ideal of a liberal arts education. Sure, there are pre-professionals at W&M (I’d like to think that my d will wind up a professional after we’ve paid $160K-plus for her degree) – they’re certainly at Pitt and Northeastern, too. W&M is among the top providers of Peace Corps and Teach for America members every year. The student body went for Obama by more than a 2 to 1 margin in 2008 (not discussing politics - just refuting fineartsmom’s “junior staff person for a Republican congressman” comment). The clubs and organizations on campus include 11 student-run acapella groups; 3 AIDS relief organizations; dance groups including Bhangra, belly-dancing, and step-dancing; organizations for many world religions and atheists/agnostics, too; Amnesty International and other social justice/activist groups on such issues as fair trade, sustainable food practices, etc. So a student who wants a diverse community, or to save the world, will find his place on campus. As one would expect and hope for on a college campus, there are student political groups for Dems, Republicans, libertarians, and in-betweens.</p>
<p>OP, I’m sure your son will find fine professors at any of these schools. I know from my ds’ experiences that the faculty at W&M is deeply committed to undergrad teaching, forming personal relationships with their students, and assisting them in ways that go beyond the classroom. But since your son is hesitant about how well he’d do at W&M, that’s something to consider. Is there a school he prefers over the others? He can get into law school from any of the three.</p>
<p>Northeastern has a surprising “campus-y” feel for a city school. But it is in a city. </p>
<p>There are various music opportunities on the NEU campus. My son has enjoyed Pep Band, Concert Band). Also Jazz Band (auditions are during the first week of school - research ahead if that is an interest). He also found a way to use the piano practice rooms, even though not taking a music class. </p>
<p>Other music perks include Symphony Hall (Boston Symphony) and Berklee (free music recital/concerts) and New England Conservatory of Music all within walking distance.</p>
<p>Like any college, I think the profs can vary from class to class. One that I heard about that sounded interesting was a former journalist (once arrested as suspected spy).</p>
<p>BandMom, something tells me Northeastern wouldn’t be a great fit for your son. He sounds, frankly, intellectual and artistic. And that’s not the typical profile of a Northeastern student - and I say this as a mother of a Northeastern senior. Most kids at NEU are pretty focused on a professionally-oriented field. It’s just not a school that’s terribly strong in the humanities and it doesn’t really attract a lot of kids who are. I think Pitt or W&M would have more to offer your son.</p>
<p>Hmmm…among the top five words I would use to describe my kid are “intellectual” and “artistic” and he loves Northeastern. </p>
<p>Of course, he also loves Boston and the NEU campus, so those factors no doubt helped set the stage for his wonderful experience so far. Also important to him was saving money for grad school and NEU has allowed us to do that.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for sharing. I am always amazed at the diversity of intelligent opinions that are posted on College Confidential. It is why this resource is so valuable to those of us who are constantly craving the inside scoop.</p>
<p>My son has read all of your comments. They are most appreciated. He has chosen to accept William & Mary’s offer. Now we can all breath a little easier. As he put it, “well that 9 months of work is finally done.” Ha. Little does he realize yet that this is only the beginning…!</p>
<p>Please don’t take it the wrong way: I don’t mean that NEU students aren’t intellectual or artistic – it’s just that intellectual or artistic exploration isn’t their primary reason for picking Northeastern. Most are there because they’re preparing for a profession in a designated field and see the co-op experience as the best way to gain practical experience in/toward that profession. I think an undecided student who wants to explore different areas would be better served in a traditional university or LAC - many of which provide internship opportunities as well.</p>
<p>Update: OP’s son’s decision just popped up. Congrats to both!</p>
Her post has my blood pressure up a bit (“joking - sort of” notwithstanding) because I’ve noticed how often opinion is taken as fact on CC, and her comments don’t accurately reflect what I know about W&M. And, for what it’s worth, one of my W&M kids is quite “save the world” herself, and the other couldn’t be less of the “grind kind of mindset” described by fineartsmom. </p>