Wake Forest Drops Requirement for SAT or ACT

Colleges and Universities A-Z Wake Forest University
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<p>Let me say up front, I concur with WFU's decision. I believe that WFU will be leading the pack on this one, with many equally fine schools to follow. Universities are like lemmings. While they are doomed to survive ... simply look at the history ... even modest, mediocre colleges in the middle of Podunk, Iowa or Nevada or wherever ... have outlasted even the greatest of businesses ... Westinghouse, GM-Ford-Chrysler (does anyone believe they can survive another 50 years?), AT&T, and on and on and on. So colleges and universities are designed to survive. But they are anything but courageous, innovative, or entrepreneurial. Tenured faculty with lifetime contracts make sure of that. What are you gonna do? Fire them? Only if they text message/sleep their coeds inappropriately or gather kiddy porn on their computers. They pride themselves on being bastions of the way it used to be ... note the robes & regalia, etc. </p>

<p>But on this one, I think WFU is right and out front and very soon the Dukes, Davidsons, and Ivies will follow. They have been trying to get out of this SAT gridlock for ions, but had no way out. They've been held hostage but the baloney that SAT's are the magic # that will correctly forecast collegiate success. Baloney. So count me among those who do not buy for one single moment the mythical magic of the SAT saga and its critical path into and out of college. It's simply been a lot of "make work" for a cottage industry that likes to play brain teaser with college-bound students, universities, and a few scholarship granting organizations.</p>

<p>What irritates is WFU's stated and implied reasons for beginning the process of delimiting and eventual elimination of this hocus pocus. They are disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. </p>

<p>The obvious, transparent reasons for doing this have been readily, clearly illustrated in this thread. In a nutshell they are to raise mean scores, enhance PERCEIVED selectivity, and enable admitting groups of students who would otherwise ... unless they can dribble between their legs with equal dexterity, vertically leap 48", or run the 40 in pads in 4.45 or less ... be inadmissable without having to defend the decision, and all at the expense/in place of the simply average excellent well-rounded white kid from the boring home where 2 parents live together and teach 2nd grade and AP English, respectively. What could they possibly add to the campus cachet, right?</p>

<p>WFU and the others can and will do what they wish. The consumer has virtually no say. It's a monopoly, especially among the "top 30" or 40 or 50. They're all banging for the same small group of students while the rest can go to Penn State or Clemson or Ohio State or Bemidji State or Slippery Rock or any of the other hundreds of public, mass-education-on-the-relative-cheap campuses that 80%+ must now settle for ... In reality, within severe self-imposed limits, neither group has any real choice. So my only real point is begrudging the reality that our brain factories perceive their victim-customers to be so stupid and naive to buy the idea about this all being for the well-being of humankind and enhancing access to the ivy-covered towers of academe. As noted, it will for those who otherwise couldn't/can't spell Wake Forest. It's called Affirmative Action and is designed to provide for those unable to provide for themselves under the traditional norms of the institution.</p>

42

<p>Just because Wake is dropping the requirement doesn't make the school less prestigious. It just means kids who don't test well will still have a chance at getting in. Cutting out the SAT won't change the faculty or the programs Wake offers. Intelligent students will still go there and admissions will still be competitive. I think that smart kids will figure all this out and still apply.</p>

43

<p>The dropped SAT/ACT requirements haven't hurt either Bowdoin or Middlebury in the rankings and SAT ranges. According to USNews, Bowdoin and Middlebury are ranked #7 and #4 respectively. For Bowdoin, the SAT ranges (25th-75th) are for the class of 2011 are the following: 650-740 Critical Reading, 650-730, and Math 650-730. Also, Bowdoin only admitted 18% of the applicants for the Class of 2012. I think WFU is taking a step in the right direction. Personally, I don't see this policy negatively affecting WFU's prestige at all. Most applicants will still submit their test scores anyway.</p>

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<p>next week's top stories: "Grades Now Optional to Apply" ; "Never Taken a Single High School Course? It's Ok!" ; "High School Transcript - What's That?".</p>

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<p>just told my daughter about WF's announcement, and she simply said, "I guess I'll take them off my list." We discussed pros and cons as outlined on this thread, but she still perceives it as a negative overall. I have a feeling she's not alone (high SAT and ACT scorer).</p>

46

<p>I will be attending Wake Forest in the fall. Honestly, I think there is no way I would have even applied if I was class of 09. This doesn't exactly change my opinion about Wake, I just know that I would have been scared away from applying had SATs been optional, similar to why I did not apply to Harvey Mudd. I am that applicant that Whistle Pig described a few posts ago. With mediocre grades and not stupendous ecs I would have assumed I didn't have a shot and not wasted my time on a school that wouldn't appreciate my high test scores.</p>

47

<p>They never said that they will not consider test scores. Another school that made them optional only had 150 applicants that didn't send in scores at all. Students that score highly will still send them in to be considered. I personally think it is kind of ignorant and shortsighted to not apply to a school that is simply being progressive. Soon, this will be the norm.</p>

48

<p>Wake has still said that you can submit your test scores and they will be considered. It's not that Wake doesn't appreciate high test scores, it's that they're saying that high scores shouldn't the be all end all of college admissions. Wake's website on the new decision ( WFU</a> | Admissions | SAT/ACT Policy ) says the following:
[quote]
We have always allowed students to submit supplemental information in the admissions process if they felt that this information would provide a broader representation of their abilities. If students feel that their performance on a particular standardized test should be considered by the Admissions Committee, they may submit those scores for consideration. However, for those students who do not believe that standardized scores present an accurate representation of their abilities, they may elect not to report them for consideration.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm still not sure what my feeling on the decision is. In general, I feel that too much weight is placed on the SAT. I also feel like the SAT is biased. Though the College Board has tried to fix it as much as possible, there are still discrepancies. And we all know that, to a certain degree, the SAT can be taught and is taught to those fortunate enough to be able to purchase a series of fairly expensive classes. And so if the point is to put pressure on other colleges to re-think their admissions procedures or if it's to put pressure on the College Board to re-work their test so that it is more fair, then I applaud the measure. I'm just not sure how it's going to work out to be one of the pioneers.</p>

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<p>Thats a heart warming story Kentucky Mom <em>Sigh</em></p>

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<p>"the only top 30"</p>

<p>that'll change soon enough</p>

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<p>"I personally think it is kind of ignorant and shortsighted to not apply to a school that is simply being progressive."</p>

<p>Agree, ginnyvere. "Shortsighted" is just the word I'd use. But, to each his/her own.</p>

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<p>The post by DukeBlueDevils made me sad.

[quote]
ever consider why they're underrepresented (like maybe because they don't belong there)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Despite kentuckymom's prediction, I think academically gifted students will still apply to Wake Forest. Great academics there.

[quote]
Nine Wake Forest students win Fulbright scholarships
May 21, 2008
Eight Wake Forest University seniors and one graduate student have been awarded Fulbright Scholarships for 2008-2009. Each student will spend one year studying, researching or teaching abroad.<br>
Senior recipients:<br>
Erica Demarest of Dover, N.J., will teach English in Germany.
Francis Jones of Narberth, Pa., will teach English in Korea.
Joseph Mauro of Falls Church, Va., will teach English in Hong Kong.
David Nix of Jacksonville, Fla., will study architecture and culture in Japan.
Caitlin Patrick of Lake Forest, Ill., will teach English in Indonesia.
William Rothwell of Charlotte will do research in biochemistry in Australia.
David Schoen of Birmingham, Ala., will teach English in Germany.
Kristen Shepherd of West Friendship, Md., will teach English in Spain.
Graduate student recipient:
Parissa Jahromi of Baltimore, Md., will research cross-cultural psychology in the Netherlands.
Established in 1946, the Fulbright Program is an international education exchange program sponsored by the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs of the U.S. Department of State. Operating in more than 155 countries worldwide, the program is designed to increase mutual understanding between the people of the United States and people of other countries. Last year, more than 1,200 Americans studied abroad with either full or partial support from the Fulbright Program.<br>
Fulbright recipients design their own programs of study, which can include
university coursework, library or field research, classes in an art or music school, independent projects in social or life sciences, teaching assistantships in English or a combination of these or other projects.<br>
Thirty-eight Wake Forest students have received Fulbright Scholarships since 1993.<br>
“We are extremely proud of each of these recipients,” said Tom Phillips, director of the Wake Forest Scholars program. “Each year the number of our Fulbright scholars increases. It is a testament to the quality of students we have at Wake Forest, the attention given them by our faculty Fulbright committee, the foreign language training they receive, and the continuing interest among them in international studies programs.”<a href="That's%20a%20recent%20Wake%20Forest%20press%20release.">/quote</a></p>

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<p>I don't know how people are leaping to some of the conclusions being drawn here. Just because WFU is giving its admissions office more lattitude doesn't suggest anything in terms of what the outcomes will be as a result. Maybe they have discovered that the dominance of the SAT in admissions precludes their ability to filter for other kinds of intelligence -- intelligence that goes beyond ones test taking skills. And I also wouldn't assume that admissions doesn't have the ability to discern qualifications within the context of the differences between one HS and another. In any event, I would be slow to arrive at any conclusion that this move will make their student body less competitive or the school less prestigious. It could just as easily have the opposite result. </p>

<p>And frankly, I don't think it says very much about a student who feels the best quality he/she brings to admissions is the SAT score.</p>

54

<p>Despite all the huffing and puffing, "I'll blow your house down" threats noted here in ... this will have zero impact on the upper end students generally, anecdotal situations already noted here. Why in the world would this have one iota's worth of impact upon a student's decision to apply (or perhaps NOT apply?) ONe would really have to wonder why that candidate was applying in the first place and what difference a relative few low end students on a campus of 4,500 students would have? Can anyone tell us with any persuasiveness? </p>

<p>Where it will impact is on the lower end of the WFU spectrum. It will enable admitting/enrolling those students unable to do so under the current rules of the road. And in turn, it will empower the campus decision makers ever more so, while disabling their potential critics(the SAT brokers and editorial media pundits like US News, Princeton Review, etc) .</p>

<p>And as for the numbers and merits of the above noted top shelf scholars in future years? They'll only increase and improve. Count on it. WFU is on the up-and-coming list, not the living on its reputation ofthe good ol' days list (altho there are scads of those well disguised in campus cloth). All one need do to see the WFU trend is look at where Wake has come from over the past 25 or 30 commencements. The change's been monumental, and way beyond what most of its languishing current competitors could proclaim. And if you want to look at an even more dramatic development, look at it since WF College moved to Winston 50 years ago, which in the world of collegiate cultures is a nano-semester. Could Harvard, Princeton, Duke, make those claims? What about the next tier ... Bucknell, Richmond, Furman, etc. They could but they'd be sorely fibbing. The kind of transformation WFU has orchestrated is nothing short of spectacular. And that's where you want to be ... buying stock in those entities that are going to be monumentally better tomorrow than they were yesterday. </p>

<p>So the important issue here is not this event, which again, I predict will start the "pigs over the cliff" gig as noted in NT. They'll all end up with this and eventually they'll skip the SAT anachronism. Technology, testing, APs, IBs, and the availability of information will eliminate this contrived power-broker for collegiate admissions. Do you think for one minute, college administrators and trustee egoes like having themselves measured by a bunch of expensive test administrators? Of course not. And this is the crack in the dyke.</p>

<p>No, the important issue to observe for those in hot pursuit of tomorrow's acknowledged "top schools" should be watching 2 things ... What's been the delta, the change over the past 20 years, and which ones are raising the most $$/per student (not gross). Wake would be near the top on both.</p>

<p>The one that has seemed to make little change despite the $$ is U. Richmond. Aside from a country club campus, what impact are they having on the higher ed world? Mr. Robbins ought to be pretty irked about his investment, imo. But we digress.</p>

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<p>Some students have admitted that they have high school grades that are not stellar, and they do not have many ECs, but are relying on their SAT scores for entrance. If they have not been working (in the workplace), what have they been doing except falling back on their high testibility. (which is usually a direct result of an econmic advantage.) Eventually, other schools will relaize that the SAT does not determine how well a student will perform in college, only what they are capable of. Those are two completely different issues.</p>

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<p>njmom ... we agree, altho I'm not persuaded (and one can rightly say, "who cares! :eek:) about the latter part of your thought ...</p>

<p>
[quote]
Eventually, other schools will relaize that the SAT does not determine how well a student will perform in college, only what they are capable of.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I believe that's 5 decades worth of mythology that 4 stressful hours and a bunch of multiple guess questions precisely or even generally enlighten what a person's capacity for academic success or otherwise may be.</p>

<p>Conversely, I believe that general disparity between production and alleged potential can clearly reveal one's work ethic and commitment to doing one's work with care and diligence, in which case, SATs may have value principally in EXCLUDING a student. Why would any college or university have a general desire for students who would seem to have knowledge of the answers on a 4 hour exam and have otherwise failed to exemplify that knowledge in their day to day efforts? Which would an employer hire and relish? Which would you want to diagnose and prescribe your child's illness? Or design the bridge that will carry your spouse home every night? </p>

<p>Sure, the world's full of anomalies and exceptions ... that student who had to work to support his siblings, or who grew up in the swampy back parish of the Bayou, or had some kind of transformational experience taking him from the academic outhouse to the penthouse ... but only in academe are these kind of silly games played because none there will really depend upon, live or die, succeed or fail based upon the experimental outcomes. It's much more intriquing to engage that anomaly than the hoards of good, solid kids who will carry the load in HS, on campus, and in the "real world." They aren't news, and they are ho-hum boringly good in the classroom and campus.</p>

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<p>Tons of highly successful people in this world didn't do very well in tests.
French philosopher Jacques Derrida failed the entrance exam to college three times. He was one of the greatest philosopher in the 20th century.
First chinese premier Zhou Enlai failed the test and failed to enter his dream college. He was the founding father of a country called People's Republic of China.
Wake Forest's decision is very progressive indeed. It weeds out elitist from applying because what do people with higher SAT/ACT want? They want exclude those who have lesser score achievements so to reflect their own selfish importance. I consider those elitist very unhappy, they are unhappy therefore they need someone whom are more miserable than they are, and when institutions kick out the only thing that keeps them in higher status, they mourn, because they no longer have the power over the less privileged.<br>
U.S colleges are being very progressive, I think that is the reason why we have such a stunning achievements in higher education!
Just look at college rankings! You can say that our high school education is not as competitive, but our colleges are definitely the best in the world. It is not only because we have great professors, geniuses, or research funds, but because of our highly diverse student population and motivated individuals that can do away with these meaningless numbers, which is considered as "objective" while ignoring its potential to exclude those whom all not good at testing!
In China, Japan, and Korea, colleges use test as the sole determinant in admission process because they don't have enough colleges for everyone, the purpose of the testings, therefore, is to exclude, to kick people out. But unlike other instruments of exclusion, test scores have this divine rights from our fellow psychologists and researches who blatantly denied any alternatives to testing.</p>

58

<p>Confusing:</p>

<p>Two juniors:
D's friend Has an 89.1 in precalculus large local public school.
D has an 83 in H Algebra II at a selective private school.</p>

<p>D's friend scored in the 400s on SAT M - not planning to retake.
D scored 770 and 750 on SAT M.</p>

<p>Accurate test scores: IMO - yes; friend's mother - yes</p>

<p>But if you look at the level of the math course and grade, wouldn't you draw a different conclusion regarding the math ability of the girls?</p>

<p>Another case:
Student left selective private school at the end of freshman year - disappointing academic performance. Nice girl, but no one was surprised that the work load and performance level was difficult for her. She moved to a non selective Catholic hs and just graduated among the top 10 students. However, dropped into the pool of 1.5 million seniors just graduating, she isn't as strong as a top 10 ranking indicates.</p>

<p>I know the SAT has flaws, but not as many flaws as the hs systems nationwide. There is no objective measure other than standardized testing. Even within a school the system can be manipulated - students learn quickly which teachers are "easy As". How the heck can college admissions advisors not look at something that attempts to standardize?</p>

<p>I think part of the problem stems from the fact that a student may be a top student at his school and then has an SAT that indicates differently. The automatic assumption - must be a problem with the SAT. Not necessarily - looking at yourself within the context of 50 - 800 seniors in a graduating class at one particular school as compared to 1.5 million students - well, good chance it may look somewhat different.</p>

59

<p>S attends WFU. He happens to have very high SATs and did very well in HS. He was involved with many ECs and is a gifted writer...do I sound like a proud mother...:) I also know of a girl who was the president of her class, valedictorian and involved in everything she could be and, because she only scored 1250 on the SAT, she did not get into WF. She is doing phenomenally well somewhere else BUT it was their loss. She is a star!! Kids like this should not be dismissed because of their scores. These are, most likely, the kids that WF does want to admit. Those who will be active participants on their campus...S knows many high test scorers who are content to get average grades and are not into going to class either. I was initially concerned, but now I say...Good for you WF, Good for you!!</p>

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<p>foto2gem: "S attends WFU. He happens to have very high SATs and did very well in HS. He was involved with many ECs and is a gifted writer...do I sound like a proud mother... I also know of a girl who was the president of her class, valedictorian and involved in everything she could be and, because she only scored 1250 on the SAT, she did not get into WF. She is doing phenomenally well somewhere else BUT it was their loss. She is a star!! Kids like this should not be dismissed because of their scores. These are, most likely, the kids that WF does want to admit. Those who will be active participants on their campus...S knows many high test scorers who are content to get average grades and are not into going to class either. I was initially concerned, but now I say...Good for you WF, Good for you!!
Today 10:02 AM"</p>

<p>But nobody stopped WF from admitting her based on her SAT scores. The SAT scores were another factor to be weighed in the admissions process. If WF did not admit her based on her SAT scores alone, then shame on them; but it doesn't follow that WF should not have the SAT scores to consider as part of the process.</p>