<p>MAMom somehow I missed your post! Thanks, those are exactly the worries I have. Her roommate came with a low gpa, got in through some influence and church affiliation...she already flucked one class last semester! Just too many flakey things. Going to have long serious talk with D without roommate listening on other side of the phone/ IM!
edad - one of the original criteria was a school that she could have housing for most of her time there..her criteria!<br>
Will keep you all posted thanks.</p>
<p>This is a really interesting thread. I have to admit when I first started reading it I thought there were a lot of rather overprotective parents out there. I had always assumed my D would move out of campus housing after the first year or two. Having read of all the potential pitfalls I will give it a lot more thought when the time comes.</p>
<p>There are some additional costs to this in that apartments are usually kept year-round in which case it must be paid for during the summer months. If the student doesn't plan to actually stay there then due to either spending the summer at home or at a study-abroad location, then it's 3 months of 'wasted' rent.</p>
<p>Another thing to think about is the laundry situation. My D's apt. is not set up for it, so she has to go to a public laundromat. One time she left her clothes to dry, went to practice for 1-1/2 hours, came back - and someone had stolen her clothes. I know this can happen in a dorm too, but I think there is a lot less chance of it.</p>
<p>As much as I was dead set against the apt. idea, my D is very strong-willed and did it anyway. It has turned into one of those life's lessons for her.</p>
<p>I don't know how widespread a practice this is, but when my UMich son lived in apartments close to campus 2000-2003, the landlord companies required the parents of the student renters to sign papers obligating us to cover unpaid rent and damage. Each year, when changing apartments, he and his roommates scrubbed and repaired (nail holes and such) like crazy as they knew we would hold them $$$ responsible if the landlords came after us. Fortunately, he and his roommates were responsible guys, but sometimes you're not so fortunate as previous posts have pointed out.</p>
<p>Another thing to consider that both my kids have dealt with in three different college towns is that leases were always for 1 year. My son/roommates never recouped the rent lost by having to sublet the apartments to others in the summers for the balance of their leases.</p>
<p>My junior D has gradually changed her opinion of living off campus at her LAC, and will be moving back to the dorms for her senior year. She is the happiest with her cooking freedom, but the least satisfied with hounding 2 roommates for checks to cover bills and all of them worrying about keeping the heat turned down lower and the lights on less to save money. As she put it "I have the rest of my life to pay bills and I'd like to not think about how long my shower lasts or if I can leave a light on when I leave to go out."</p>
<p>This was one of the things we looked for when looking at schools.
What is on campus like & how available, how close is off campus and do students still participate in on campus activities.</p>
<p>Some schools don' t have adequate on campus housing, even for freshmen. Actually many state Us don't, I have one nephew who had to stay either in the lobby or with a professor until others moved out his freshmen year at Boulder & know students who had former broom closets made into rooms at Bellingham.</p>
<p>We were pleasantly surprised when D was given a single room ( at Reed), without even requesting it. Since she has ADD, this helped a great deal, to give her a place where she could have quiet if she needed it. ( although their shared rooms are divided doubles- basically two singles with one hallway door)</p>
<p>In a shared house, its possible that having a private room, would offset the additional time needed to maintain the house.
If they aren't working, there is time to do so, besides their studies, but it depends on how good they are at planning their time.
Often students don't move out till junior year, at which time, they have a good idea of who would make a new roommate, and they want to test their adult skills, still in a relatively controlled environment, as a college student.</p>
<p>It does sound like you have huge worries about this roommate, and I agree roommates can be a problem.</p>
<p>My D did move off campus senior year, but as it was into a college owned townhouse, she was still eligible ( but not required) to buy board. She did opt to buy the smallest plan available, and shared the points with her roommate, he was the main buyer of the food they ate at home. </p>
<p>She had lived with roommates before, having worked at a residential camp summers for several years, sharing a room that was about the size of our bathroom! and she got along with her roommate very well, although as seniors, they admittedly didn't see each other that much as they have opposite schedules ( he was very early riser & she is late), and they both spent a great deal of time in their respective labs ( bio & biochem).</p>
<p>She is really enjoying her current roommate ( also a Reed alum), who while he also has ADD, is very responsible and is working as a paramedic, so I am pretty comfortable that he will be able to handle minor first aid emergencies :)
I don't know how hard I would come down on the choice to move off campus.
I think that young adults need to continue to make their own decisions and live with the consequences. After all soon, we will have little or no say over what they do, and I would rather that I can oversee their decision making now, than have no idea or control later.</p>
<p>In Portland, there were quite a few houses close by, that while not owned by Reedies, they had a long history of being rented to them, as students also often work on campus over summers, this also gives them a place to stay, as dorms close down after graduation.</p>
<p>This does give you a chance to help them set up guidelines, and to have more say than if she was more fully independent, but I really am not familiar with either the housing situation in Ca, or with her roommate, so all I can do is share our own experience.</p>
<p>"I have the rest of my life to pay bills", is exactly right. That is why I am not in such a hurry for my kids to leave the dorms. At some schools you have to get out since there is insufficient housing. In some areas, the cost of the dorms or other college housing is way higher than what you can get on your own. My son lived in an apartment which was provided by his university, but the building was privately owned and leased out some floors to the college since the school was short on housing, To rent the same unit privately was less than half the cost that the college charged AND you got the whole unit, not half, so the college cost was 4X that of a private resident. Even paying 12 months did not make up the discrepancy, nor did the utilities, cleaning and maintenance supplies (uni provided light bulbs, vacum cleaners to borrow, garbage bags, cleaning fluids, etc) bring it up there. But a student did not have to worry about a thing moving in there. We, the parents paid the rent along with the rest of the college bill, twice a year, and that was it. No land line phone bills, no DSL issues, no cable issues, not electric bills. The floors dedicated to students had an RA to keep an eye on things, and despite all the things I heard about how ineffective he was, there was someone there to take care of issues. Some one you could call who was being paid to involve himself if you couldn't find your kid during an emergency or other concerns. The apartment was cleaned at Christmas and Spring breaks; there were thing planned so you knew all of your student neighbors on those college floors whereas it is not unusual to not know who lives on your floor in these buildings. It worked out decently well, though I still would have preferred a dorm for him, particularly freshman year. But the limited liability on our part was particularly a godsend. His roommate's family had financial issues, and there were problems with them not making payments to the school. If that had been a private apartment, we would have learned a lot more the exact issues than we did. My son shared more food with him than he might have had the kid been flush, but since he still ate most of meals on campus, there was not much effect on us. When your roommate has money problems, in a private apartment, you are likely to feel the effects of them. And pursuing a deadbeat roommate or his parents is a horrible pain in the neck. Who the heck wants to do that? Also, his roommate left the place earlier than my son, and left it a mess. Just left a lot of his junk there. Though we did some clean up, we had the RA come and sign off on some of the obvious leftovers that were not son's. Also the school was not as punitive as a landlord would be in such a case. Had there been a security deposit left there, I don't know how little would have been recouped. THe university has its own team of cleaners to get the apartments in shape for the following year.<br>
Even living alone off campus has some risks that I would just prefer to delay for a while. Kids get mood disorders, do foolish, self destructive things during college. That first stint of freedom from home and rules often leaves things open for poor choices. Though things happen at the dorms as well, you are watched somewhat there, and if someone starts going extreme, there is a better chance of it being caught. My friend's stepdaughter went into a depressive funk at college, and kids in her dorm, told the RA who called the parents, checked on the kid. That safety net is not there when you live alone. Also you can disappear for a long time when you live by yourself. Though my apt mates and I had radically different schedules, we saw each other regularly, and would have noticed something amiss pretty quickly if someone was off track and did not mention she was going somewhere.<br>
Also cleaning schedules and standards can be a big problem in an apartment with common space. Great if your kid can deal with them, another issue when they can't or don't. I even like communal bathrooms for hygiene reasons. At least you know they are getting cleaned some times.<br>
The way I look at it, the reason we are sending them to college is so that they can focus on an education while being in a quasi state of independence. Usually when apt problems come up, they cut into study time, not party time. You can learn to deal with apt mates and landlords when you are not paying for school, but getting paid to work which alleviates mom and dad's costs tremendously.</p>
<p>Well, after reading all the replies, maybe I was wrong and Canadian kids ARE more capable of living on their own. ;)</p>
<p>My first 2 kids moved off campus starting their soph. years. It was a positive experience for both of them. Yes, there were a couple roommate issues such as whose turn it was to take out garbage or clean the bathroom--but nothing more than they would have dealt with in a dorm. And their dorm experiences were so very negative. </p>
<p>For both of these kids it ended up being cheaper also to live off campus and safety and convenience were not issues. They also ate much better nutritionally in their own apartment and we didn't have wasted meal plan money that wasn't used. If I were in situation of OP, I may feel differently--more expensive, much less convenient, etc.</p>
<p>My third child is planning to move off next year as a junior (first year it is allowed at his school). He is so looking forward to having his own bedroom--not having sleep disturbed, fixing own meals, a place to hang-out during down time and not having to abide by move in/move out schedule of dorms. The main reasons for him to move is the ability to have private space for sleep or study and control of his own diet. The downside is that it will be less convenient--right now everything he needs is within a 5 min. walk from dorm. However, the apartment complexes he is considering range in distance from .5-1.5 miles from campus and he feels the positives outweigh the negatives. In his case also the cost will be less.</p>
<p>We strongly discouraged S from moving off campus next year as a sophomore and he ultimately didn't fight us on it. His only stated motivation was that everybody else is moving off campus. His high school buddies signed a lease in October and wanted him to go in with them. Our fear was that his unstated motivation was to make it easier to drink/have parties. The choice suggested would be slightly more expensive than the dorm option and require rent during the summer months when he won't be there.</p>
<p>I looked up the percent of sophomores living off campus and remember it as about 50%. I was surprised it was that high, but at least could counter that not "everybody" moves off campus. We were obviously not in favor of him being in a place where it is easier to drink. He loves the noise of the dorms, complaining only about the quiet enforced during exam week. He loves the cafeteria food and he does all of his studying at the library. His grades were great the first semester and he never complained about his roommate, although they did not become friends or socialize together. </p>
<p>The sophomore dorm housing on his campus has a kitchen and living room with either two bedrooms or three bedrooms and two baths. He will continue to share a bedroom and is going into one of the three bedroom places with guys from his current dorm hall. Four of the six guys in the dorm apartment are in the engineering program (including S). However, S still plans to study at the library and eat in the cafeteria.</p>
<p>In my DD's case, off-campus is cheaper, and she gets her own bedroom. Since they are renting month-to-month and there is no security deposit (placed will be torn down and condo's built there within the next year!), I have no worries about it. Her university figures off-campus and on-campus housing at the on-campus rate for financial aid purposes - so that, if you look hard, you can find places that actually save you money. In the OP case, I would say "no"; it's not cheaper, it's not convenient, and there don't really seem to be any benefits!</p>
<p>Alwaysamom, don't know much about Canadian school though I know some kids at McGill. I think the schools are structured differently in that there are not the dorm options, so nearly everyone lives off campus. In cases like that, parents who have kids that may not be ready for that step will not opt to go there. If American, those kids will likely stay here in the US. If Canadian, the kids will go somewhere they can commute. In Europe, most of them commute from home until they can scrape up the money on their own, or their parents feel comfortable enough to subsidise a place. Most are older than the American counterparts.
Again, I don't know about the Canadian schools, but the US schools are virtually playgrounds for young adults rather than just an academic center. Most campuses enjoy some degree of protected status, in that raucous activities that may land someone in jail elsewhere are ignored by the local police who leave the college to patrol their own. When you have that situation, there is that additional danger when a kid leaves the invisible safety boundaries.<br>
However, I know several families that regretfully did not encourage their child to go to McGill because they felt that the American university system with its amenities was a better fit for them at that time. When kids graduate, they enter this world soon enough, and I, for one, am grateful for this grace period. As several parents have posted, moving off campus can be a positive experience, better than the dorms. In the end it comes down to what sort of risk the parent wants to take, since even in ideal cases, the possibilities of trouble are more and can easily involve courts, money and necessary parental involvement. Some of us don't want to go there yet. We are picking our poison, so to speak, as dorm life is not ideal and has its own pitfalls.<br>
There are a number of schools in the US that have no campus, and the kids are living apt life from the onset, even if they are in university housing. That arrangement for my kids was still too adult; I would have preferred to have had them in a dorm room right on campus. My friend whose daughter lived in apts at NYU for 4 year, now in her first non uni place, has already found the risks involved with this apt on her own with roomie situation and has suffered the consequences of some of them. I'm sure they occur in Canada and Europe as well, but those issues are pretty much eliminated in a campus housing situation. These risks are often the next step to independence, but I just want to stall the progression some. It's not as though renting an off campus unit now is going to prepare them better for when they have to do this in a few years. Many of the worst problems are not preventable or predictable, but come down to plain bad luck, and you don't have to practice that.</p>
<p>As an aside, my son is looking for summer sublets this year, as he wants to be in the city. He'll have 3 months of apt living on his own, but in a simplified mode. I can live with this. It is within my coping zone. So it really is up to the parents. When you make the decision whether you want to support an off campus move or not, just be aware of the possibilities and responsibilities that arise, that may require your intervention. You all may be younger and hardier than I am with children far more responsible, and not be as risk adverse as I am right now. And I may change my mind at any given time on my stance for my kids. But the list of issues remain out there regardless of my opinion of whether a kid should move off campus or not.</p>
<p>capt, my reply was tongue in cheek, as I'm sure you know. :) I agree with you that it is a pick your poison decision but I think that many kids would surprise their parents in how well they're able to handle the issues of finding a suitable apartment, setting up cable, internet, hydro services, shopping for groceries, cooking, organizing cleaning schedules and yes, still doing their school work and having a social life! It's not really that difficult and, honestly, I've heard of more difficult issues surrounding roommates with kids who live IN dorms rather than elsewhere.</p>
<p>At Canadian universities, for the most part, students move to 'off-campus' (which really in most cases is not OFF campus) housing after first year. My D3 is at Univ. of Toronto and they are one of the exceptions. Students are welcome to stay in housing all four years if they choose to, and as long as they are not on academic probation. Most Canadian universities are surrounded by sufficiently adequate rental properties for students. It isn't a matter of students commuting from their parents' homes, if that was what you were referencing.</p>
<p>Canadian schools are not much different overall, especially in the aspect you referred to as 'playgrounds for young adults'. My D2 is at NYU and has lived both in NYU housing and in her own apartment, as did my older D who attended an Ivy and is now finished grad school. Lots of different experiences and I agree that many parents are not ready to allow their children the independence that they want, and it is obviously the parents' choice as to what they feel their child is capable of, at any given age. We've been fortunate in that our kids have been very independent and responsible and have travelled all over the world alone, with siblings, and with various groups since their mid-teens. I understand that this isn't the case with all kids. I just think that a lot of kids would surprise their parents by how capable they are when faced with various issues. :)</p>
<p>My son wanted to join 5 others in a house this year. Price was dirt cheap and the excitement was high. A big old house about a mile and a half from the university shuttle which runs regularly to the main campus which is about 3 and a half milies from there. I really did not feel as strong as I may sound in my posts when I said "no". The kids seemed very nice, they were working so hard to make the house a home, and they set up cable, internet, a system for bills, got furniture, had a chart for cleaning house and cooking and other chores. Yep, I felt like the ogre, all right. IT really looked like such a good situation, and a mile and a half really is not that far at all, heck, I walked more than that regularly. But I was just too weary to deal with all the potential problems, and having already lived that life, I just didn't want to take it on right now, willing to risk having a resentful college student when all worked well with those guys. It looked really good.
Well, the rent was low enough that my son was able to work out an arrangement to stay there, even with his dorm room. All of this unbeknowst to us. By Thanksgiving he was back in his dorm room. Since he had no lease, just an informal thing, it was not a problem, at least from what I know, but things really fell apart. It snowed in Buffalo in October (yes, it never happens, I am told, but it did), and the city did not cope well with it. THe house suffered terribly. The power went out, the heat did not work, nothing worked. Some pipes leaked, and the roof had problems, and the landlord was not answering calls. THe mile and a half walk that was "nothing" was a real problem, and the shuttles were compromised. All those guys with cars suddenly were not available. Two guys left and they were on the lease officially. Someone stole my son's credit card and ran it up, before returning it--he was close enough to the limit that the loss was not big. He spent waay too much on food, running up his card for it, since he was no longer near campus fare. Then came pressure to take up the slack of the two guys who left when they had agreed on some small amount for him to share the room with one of the guys--they wanted him in as an official tenant now since the cost was now split only 3 ways fully and with my son's token amount. Well, when the power did not go back on for several days, my son went back to his dorm, where he had hot water for showers and where most of his stuff was, anyways. The shuttle that goes around campus picks them up in a garage in the dorm so he barely has to go out. THere is a food court and cafeteria in his dorm. Laundry facilities very convenient (they used a laundromat at the house). His computer was working, he had campus cash (credit card maxed out), and it took very little time to go to classes and back. And he's there now. The house experiment was over. But had I agreed, and had he moved in their fully without the dorm room, there would have been so much more trouble. I understand the parents are involved now because the repairs have still not been done, and guys are now at each others throats there. Two are now on academic probation for the term. Son is still paying the token amount, but they are not at all grateful for it; angry that he did not take the place of one of the guys who left.<br>
He was in a theatre production in early November, and it is doubtful he could have juggled the courses, the production, rehearsals, etc living in that house since getting to school would have been a problem. He moved his stuff out, since there has been a petty theft problem there as well. Though there are just 3 of them left there, it is like an open house since there are a number of student houses in that area. They have not had a major crime issue but the university has mentioned that the area, University Hts is not the safest place to be and the police blotters confirm this as compared to hardly any reports on anything on the main campus.</p>
<p>Talked with D tonight...didn't go well, she just shut down. We have always been very close, it was me she leaned on after a very difficult break-up last year. I believe some of this is a way of escaping the pain and depression she has battled. Too tired tonight...hope the light of day brings clarity. Thanks for the posts.</p>
<p>Hang in there JC...I had a hard time with this too. As I mentioned, my son decided to go off campus next year and I'm still not happy with it...but have moved on at this point. At some point, they need to start making decisions and living with them - good or bad. As long as he's paying for any extra costs involved, and there aren't any huge safety issues, I could not imagine putting my foot down to say no. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised and it works out well. Good luck to you and your D!!</p>
<p>I left D alone this week, she called me today...She learned the hard way that roomie is a very troubled girl...can't go into detail, but D has come to realize from some very sad events that she can't carry roomies burdons for her. I suspect the apt idea will fizzle. Mom's instincts prove true, however D had to discover for herself. For those with faith roomie needs prayers. Thanks everyone.</p>