<p>This is more of a Humanitarian discussion as opposed to a Political one so please don't get into a debate over who is at fault. The intention of this thread is meant as a place to learn from each other and create understanding about this event which is comparable to the events of Hurricane Katrina and the Souteast Asian Tsunami.</p>
<p>Let me start by saying that I don't know everything or much about the conflict between Israel and Lebanon or the history between Israel and Muslim countries for that matter but nothing justifies the atrocities that have been committed against Lebanon and its people most recently the bombing of Qana and the murder of some 30 or more women and children... </p>
<p>People have argued that these people were put there on purpose for the sole purpose of swaying public opinion towards Hezbollah the militant group in Lebanon but this still doesn't answer the question of why Israel would pull the trigger and even risk the lives of these unarmed civilians then simply brush off the incident as a "mistake" and "collateral damage" poor excuse.</p>
<p>If you haven't heard about this incident I urge you to google Qana massacre and judge for yourself.
If anyone can shed some light on this issue or would like to give an opinion please do, as ive stated I am pretty ignorant to the history and would like to understand why someone would do such criminal acts of violence.</p>
<p>Let me ask you this. Why did you wait so long to start a threat about huminitarism in the ME. Specifically involving Israel. Why did you never bring up the massacre sof Jewish children eating pizza or dancing in a disco. I guess because the the Arabs did their deed on purpose while the Israelis was an accident.</p>
<p>You can't blame a militant group's actions on the entire country you would be pretty naive if you actually believed that ALL Lebanese people hate Israel even now. Israel's government however is the aggressor in this case and is not the least bit sympathetic... their response: "you shouldve left when you had the chance your fault" This is just callous and reminiscent of the atrocities committed by the Nazis against the Jewish people.</p>
<p>I see, Israel's government was the agressor in this case. Interesting. Interesting. How do you explain rocket attacks from Lebanon since the 70's and this recent kidnapping not to mention scores of other kidnappings. You are right about Lebanese people. You would be interested to know that the Lebanese arent as anti-Israeli as you think especially when you move northward. They are still grateful for kicking the PLO out of Lebanon. The problem is that its a shame for innocent civillians to die, but it is really the fault of the terrorists who fight among them. The difference between Israeli and Arab in this conflict is that the Israeli fights in front of a child protecting him, the Arab fights behind a child, protecting himself. You seem to know the history of WWII fairly well. During WWII the Royal Air Force in its bombardment of the Nazis in Copenhagen hit a children's hospital. This is a sad fact of war. You would never lambast the Brits for war crimes and compare them to nazism rite?</p>
<p>Let me ask you a question. In the summer of 2005 Israel left every inch of the Gaza strip. It expelled every single Jew from the territory. It even took the necessary steps to dig up Jewish graves and move them out of Israel. This was done in hopes of peace. The Israelis felt that since the Palestinian Arabs claimed they wanted land, if they were given the land they would stop their violence. So Israel gives away Gaza. The Palestinian Arabs finally got what they wanted. So did they build up a country or a state of their own? No. Did they use the amazing farming equipment left behind to cultivate world class oranges, lettuce heads, and other agricultural items? No. What did they do? They vandalized and destroyed FORMER synagogues and built up their terror bases. The day Israel left all of Gaza, rockets rained in on Sderot. Fine maybe it will pass thought the Jews. Nope rocket attacks continued. They became a daily part of life for some Jews. This all culminated in the summer of 2006 when Arab terrorist left their safe haven of Gaza murdered two Israeli soldiers in Israel, and kidnapped one. A few days later Arab terrorists in Judea and Shomrom kidnapped and murdered an Israeli teen studying in Yeshiva. To top all this off a week later Hezbullah rushed the burder, went into Israel, kidnapped 2 soldiers and murdered 6. Then they started to barrage northern Israel with rockets. So now here comes my question. YOU are the Prime Minister of Israel. YOU are the Defense Minister. What do YOU do. You have 3 kidnapped soldiers, 8 dead soldiers, and a dead teen. Rockets continue to rain in on Israel. You tried peace last summer but it failed. So how do YOU respond. Please do not sidestep this question. Those opposed to this Israeli military operation, what is the alternative for the democratic country of Israel.</p>
<p>"You would never lambast the Brits for war crimes and compare them to nazism rite?" </p>
<p>In a heart beat.</p>
<p>"YOU are the Defense Minister. What do YOU do. You have 3 kidnapped soldiers, 8 dead soldiers, and a dead teen."</p>
<p>Funny how you can with certainty I presume count he number of dead Israelis and I'm sure this is well documented... now can you give me a number for all the dead Lebanese with certainty? no you can't not because of misleading figures as the media has said but because of the sad fact that their deaths are not covered or regarded with the same importance as those of the Israel casualties you just mentioned.</p>
<p>Why is it that Israel started on the offensive again? Did a specific event spark this was there something that became "the last straw?" Israel is expanding its territories if you'd take a second to see the stance of the public relations statements released from Israel and the United States you will see that this is the true cause for this recent burst of violence not the captured Israeli soldiers. </p>
<p>Just take Condoleeza rice for example with her analogy of the situation to that of the pains a mother goes through during the birth of a child... If this doesn't ring some bells I don't know what will. The U.S. is using Israel to change the makeup of the Middle East just another form of colonization and ethnic cleansing. Sadly, America has no respect or understanding of the Muslim people and this is why they would rather side with Israel despite their callous and cowardly crimes against humanity. History and finger pointing aside there are children being murederd stop for a second and contemplate this... just for a second...</p>
<p>Mhmm. The Jews have done it again! Always coming up with tricky ways of doing something. The Israelies are expanding their territory by leaving territory. Why did I never think of that. When in 2005 Israel left Gaza Strip they actually expanded. No wonder a Jew developed the Theory of Relativity.</p>
<p>Yes there was a last straw. The last straw was that even though Israel has not been in Lebanon for 6 years, Hezbullah kidnapped its soldiers. Another part of this last straw was that a year ago Israel tried making peace by leaving Gaza, that didnt work though. Your silence pertaining to my question leads me to believe you feel that the best course of action for the Israeli government would have been to sit on its hands silently after these attacks. Am i correct in saying that?</p>
<p>One more thing. Is there any Briton in particular you would like to blame the RAF attacks on. Tell me this should the British have been but on trial at Nuremberg along with their equals from a different country, (the Nazis)for their war cimres against humanity and innocent dannish children. Should Winston Churchill have been imprisoned and sentance to hanging like Hermann Goering. Should a similar action have been taken with regards to Americans when they killed innocent Japanese by ruthlessly dumping an atomic weapon.</p>
<p>Really? How many three? four? five? more? lets say the number is more than ten does this really warrant this reponse? Really? You are soooo biased and naive to belive this is the last straw that sparked a start to the conflict all over again. Yes Israel should sit on its hands if it prevents children from dying you keep mentioning people being blown on pizza parlos and discos and although this is tragic and sad and one does not take precedent over the other when was the last time you had a suicide bomber things were actually pretty calm up until now you better believe your'e gonna start seeing more after they killed all their children, spouses, and parents. Just admit that Israel blew it and that there is more to their motives than kidnapped soldiers something maybe that either you or me know nothing about.</p>
<p>i'm so lost in all of this. It's a hot topic right now and it's a bummer that i'm so clueless. Anybody feeling like explaining to me? It might not be easy since the news changes everyday. And it sucks that my US history didn't reach the present issues.</p>
How do you explain illegal Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon for more than 20 years??? How do you explain the IDF flying military flights and drones over Lebanese airspace for the last several decades??? How do you explain the jailings of hundreds on innocent Lebanese civilians without charge by Israel sicne the beginning of the conflict??? How do you explain Israeli massacres in Qana TWICE and many other cities/villages including Beirut that have killed thousands of Lebanese civilians in the past 20 years or so???</p>
<p>Let's be clear about one thing: both sides are at fault here. Israel created the monster known as Hezbollah through its own mismanagement of the situation during the 1982 past conflict. Hezbollah was created over the need of the Lebanese to find a group of individuals which would stand up against the oppression of the Israelis. Israel violated the Geneva convention for more than 20 years and illegally occupied many parts of Lebanon and jailed many innocents as well. Israel finally left Lebanon in 2000 with no real plan regarding the future of Southern Lebanon so the seeds of destruction were sown. The spiral of violence continued and Israel used the kidnapping of two of its soldiers by Hezbolla 23 days ago as a scapegoat to proceed with the mission it started more than 2 decades ago but failed to complete. Lebanon's army can't withstand the power of the Israelis and neither can Hezbollah openly so they have to resort to guerilla warfare and rocket attacks.</p>
<p>This situation is so much more complex than simply being able to label one group such as Hezbollah "terrorists" and rally behind Israel as the defenders of peace. Much like how the United States offered help to Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan when fighting aginst the Soviets in the 1980's, the current Islamic fascism and Arab hatred of the American world derives from decades of failed AMerican foreign policy in the region.</p>
<p>In the 1960s, the Western powers led by the U.S. actually removed Mossadeq, who was a democractic leader in Iran, from power and installed the Shah into power; this changed the course of Iran's future into one of a dictatorship. When 400+ Americans were taken hostage by young fundamentals in the American Embassy in Iran in the late 1970s, Jimmy Carter simply twiddled his thumbs and let the dnagerous situation persist. There was no attempt made to deal with the problem at hand so it was allowed to evolve. Later in 1983, when Hezbollah bombed the Marine Barracks in Beirut, Reagan simply asked the CIA and military officials there to leave the area immediately. If they were allowed to dismantle Hezbollah then and there, then the current situation today in the Mideast wouldn't be occurring and Lebanon would still be the thriving cultural and economic center it once was 30 years ago. If this isn't enough, guess what happened in the 1990's again when Islamic rebels shot down an infamous Black Hawk helicopter over the skies of Mogadish in Somalia??? President Clinton immediately evacuated all military personnel from the region.</p>
<p>Gee, I wonder what's going to happen in Iraq now. You don't think the United States will "run" away from its problems again do you??? Well, I sure hope not, but history gives me no reason to be optimistic. Israel and the US both had their chances with Hezbollah and they missed their chances, the Lebanese and Israeli people are paying the price for these missed opportunities now.</p>
<p>If this conflict isn't resolved soon, the whole world will shed blood again and again in the generations to come.</p>
<p>That boy whose parents, uncle, aunt, and sister were killed in the Qana bombing won't think about all the Arab history I have presented to you in context. He won't condemn Hezbollah but rather he will remember the sights and sounds of that Israeli fighter jet roaring overhead and launching the bomb that took everything he loved and held dear away from him forever. Then. 20 years from now, he won't think twice about striping up in yellow and placing bombs around his waist while keeping his finger pressed on the Katyusha rocket launcher trigger to get revenge on those who snatched his world away from him.</p>
<p>I'm tired of arguing though, that's all we really seem to be able to do here in the Western world for the last several decades. Someone will post that I'm a terrorist "lover" here now and I will be incited to respond. I'm not going to rant anymore.:(</p>
<p>I'm sick of all of this and am officially done with this thread.</p>
<p>"I'm tired of arguing though, that's all we really seem to be able to do here in the Western world for the last several decades. Someone will post that I'm a terrorist "lover" here now and I will be incited to respond. I'm not going to rant anymore."</p>
<p>Yes you are right. I would be the one calling you a terrorist "lover" before I educated myself to the situation there are still many with this view but just know that there are many open-minded subjective people who will listen so your words are not wasted. If you don't speak up for those people who will? Do not fold under pressure its just a bunch of racist ignorant people who have a twisted and distorted view of Islam and Muslim people trying to pacify people like yourself.</p>
<p>Idk about that, Mex. Does Israel sitting on its hands after terror work. Its interesting that you say that since not alot of soldiers have been kidnapped and killed, then its unwarranted. What is the number. When does Israel say OK enough sitting time to attack. What do you think should Britons and Americans been put on trial in Nurember too. I want you to answer this question because it willreveal to me the discussion we are having. If you answer yes they should be put on trial than the discussion we are having is , is it excusable to kill civillians in a time of war by accident while aiming at other places or is it excusable to attack an enemy who is amongst civillians. If you answer no, the americans and britons should not have been tried than our discussion becomes why Israel is held to a different standard.</p>
<p>The problems occur because people decide to run and not do anything. Israel has finally decided enough is enough and it will try to solve the problem on its own. Israel flew over Lebanese airspace to collect intelligence because for the past 6 yrs the Lebanese/Syrian governments have allowed Hezbullah to continue its terror even after Israel left lebanon. Resolution 1559 must also be implemented calling for Hezbullahs disarmament, Syrias withdrawal from the conflict. Israel was not acting outside of Geneva Convention Laws. They were doing what they can to defend them selves. There is a quote I feel sums up these conflicts "If the Arabs drop their weapons there would be no more violence, if the Israelis drop their weapons there will be no more Israel"</p>
<p>Alexandre, I am glad you asked me that question. Just to give you a quick background on Lebanon and Israel. Somewhere aroudn the 70's Lebanon became embroiled in a civil war. Tuck that piece away for now. The PLO, Palestinian Liberation Orginization was founded in 1964 by Yasser Arafat. The founding charter included a clause that stated that the PLO will not try to gain statehood in Gaza, Westbank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. 3 years later in 1967 the six-day war occured and Israel conveniantely gained possession of those territories. Immediately, the clause i early mentioned disappeared from the PLO charter, and the PLO became involved in a full scale war of attrition with Israel. They attacked jewish interests in israel and out of israel. At this time the PLO was based in Jordan which by definition is 2/3 Palestinian Arab. King Hussein fearing for his government decided to kick the PLO out of Jordan. He massacred many palestinians in what was to become known as the Black September. The PLO, kicked out of Jordan, decided to make its base in Southern Lebanon and continue their war from there. So Yasser Arafat packed his bags and headed up to Lebanon. This was a conveneint time too bc Lebanon was heading into Civil War and it was just ripe for Arafat to bring in his group in exchange for a promise of support to some lebanese faction (the history of the lebanese civil war i no little about) Arafat basically ran his base of operation and terror from lebanon barraging Israel with rockets and conducting terror raids by his Force 17. Having enough of this Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to stop and kick out the PLO. It succeeded in removing 10,000 PLO terrorists with most of them going to exile in Tunisia. This answers your first question. Now you ask why Israel stayed for 18 years. Firstly, kicking the PLO out took quite some time. Additionally, Israel's precense made it a player in the lebanese civil war. Once in, Israel tried to remove itself and only act as a proxy to kicking the PLO out. This was a mistake on its part. Israel's absence in the civil war helped Hezbullah form and become a threatening force. With the formation of Hezbullah Israel now unfortunately hade to prolong its vacation in the lebanese morass. Israel's chief mistake in Lebanon was that it failed to support the Christian Lebanese groups. They i believe were originally in power and were very grateful to Israel for destroying the PLO. The Lebanese ambassador to the UN once complained, “Palestinian elements belonging to various splinter organizations resorted to kidnapping Lebanese, and sometimes foreigners, holding them prisoner, questioning them, and even sometimes killing them.” After the massacres of Sabra and Shatila done by Christian phlangalists, Israel did not want to be associated with any Lebanese christian group as to not tarnish its image and so it publicly and for the most part withdrew from the Civil War.</p>
<p>"Israel flew over Lebanese airspace to collect intelligence because for the past 6 yrs the Lebanese/Syrian governments have allowed Hezbullah to continue its terror even after Israel left lebanon. Resolution 1559 must also be implemented calling for Hezbullahs disarmament, Syrias withdrawal from the conflict. Israel was not acting outside of Geneva Convention Laws."</p>
<p>You just don't get it. Your indifference says it all. Im done.</p>
<p>I did not ask you what the PLO did, I asked you what Lebanon did. I take it you have no answer to that question. So Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon without provocation. So, you think that after almost 20 years of occupation, there aren't going to be some screwed up and beligerent people who will strike back at Israel, even after they mostly pulled out of Lebanon? Fascinating and compelling point of view. And Israel never stopped flying its war planes over Lebanese aerospace. Lebanon is not part of Israel. It is a sovereign state, albeit a poor and militarily weak one. And Israel is holding many Lebanese civilians prisoner. Some are indeed criminals, but many are unjustly held captive.</p>
<p>By the way, the Sabra and Shatilla massacres were indeed carried out by Lebanese Christian extremists, but with intelligence and support of Israeli forces, then led by none other than Bush's "man of peace", Ariel Sharon.</p>
<p>Actually let me say again, Israel went into Lebanon because PLO was there. PLO was threatening Israel from Lebanon. Because of Civil War and other reasons the Lebanese government could not handle the PLO on their own. Israel decided to do it itself. The threat was not the Lebanese government it was the fact that the Lebanese government allowed PLO to stay in the sounth and build up an army of 10,000-15,000.</p>
<p>These groups did not have Israel's support for the massacre or intelligence. Israel took over the two camps and handed control of thom over to the Lebanese Christian Phlanglist Army. Then Israel left and did not oversee the transfer properly.</p>
<p>Like I said, Israel invaded Lebanon without provocation. That was an act of war. Everything that happened since is the fault of Israel, including the creation of Hezbollah. Hence, Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization. They are freedom fighters. Their actions since 2000 are not to be condoned, but they cannot be blamed for them either.</p>
<p>Israel isnt enemies with Lebanon. It is enemies with the terrorist in Lebanon. The lebanese were grateful to Israel for kicking the PLO out. From 1985-2000 Israel really just stayed in a small strip of land ust north of the Israeli border. I dont understadn Alexandre, I answered your question why Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 and you ignored that. Israel neverr fought the Lebanese government in 82 it only fought the PLO and then Hezbullah. Whats is your definition of a terrorist orginization Alexandre because to me Hezzbullah fits any def. of terrorists. Say Hezbullah was in the right while Israel was in Lebanon. So in 200 when Israel left, Hezbullahs goal of kicking Israel out of Lebanon was accomplished. Thus their orginization should have become obsolete. Yet for 6 yrs afterwards they did not disarm and they did continue their attacks on Israelis in Israel. So either Hezbullahs real goal is to kill all of the Jews and destroy Israel and they are fightingf for the freedom to do that or they are terrorists?</p>