Warning. or so.

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
141

<p>"your statement about this being a large community with people having a lot on their plates, and thus too busy to pay attention to such a thing seems so troubling to me."</p>

<p>(For the record, they paid attention -- but did not take any subsequent action.) So as a logical extension of your concern, you are then troubled whenever anyone in any (relatively large) community tends to other priorities rather than "pay attention" to perceived offenses against any other members of that community? </p>

<p>If so, this exceeds my ability to respond to or satisfy your "idealism." So sorry.</p>

<p>(And my comment that you quoted above, "And ideals are nice and all, but not always practicable," was in reference to your statement: "I'd hope that all students would feel affected/'unbalanced' by them, since it happened in their community... Ideally, of course, they'd also feel that way about boneheaded occurrences elsewhere in this world of ours. That would hopefully make this world of ours a better place some day." I stand by my earlier-expressed sentiment, that this is an impractical ideal: sure, there will be some ultra-sensitive folks who will feel cut to the bone at their discovery of any injustice anywhere in the world, and will be moved to do something about it -- but this world is made up of many different kinds of people (if you hadn't noticed) who choose to feel affected by/become involved in many different "callings"/occupations. To expect everyone to be/feel/react the same is to deny them their right to their individuality.)</p>

142

<p>I guess, the thing I'm struck by, both by this thread and by a concurrent one on the Williams forum, is what could possibly have been happening at the time of the incident of more importance? Read the thread on "How Easy Is It To Get To Boston?" and you'll see what I mean. We're not talking about a community with a lot going on. It's not difficult to imagine how something like this might have galvanized a similarly small, isolated, community. But, somehow the paradox of a Jewish President feeling so hamstrung by appearances that he couldn't even send a surrogate to a meeting with students? That's sad.</p>

143

<p>I have explained this. Some campuses are PC politicized. I don't mean this in a derogatory way.</p>

<p>The culture of Williams is different. It is very laid back, very old style New England.</p>

<p>Some posters are saying they don't like that. That's valid. If you don't like that, be glad your children or you aren't there.</p>

<p>Williams parents here, a Jew among them, are saying we like a place where a big deal isn't made about everything. One student did something silly/bad. At Williams this is not a federal case.</p>

<p>You are saying it should be. Okay. A valid position, but not one everyone shares.</p>

<p>I think it's clear that the campus cultures are different, and not because the president is hamstrung. If you think that, you don't know Morty Shapiro.</p>

<p>And by the way -- that's why my kid picked Williams over other LAC's where he was accepted. He is a very political kid with strong ultra liberal views but he felt (wrongly I'm sure) that some schools have pre-packaged views where everyone goes into lock step. He's a composer and wanted a more laid back meditative community. </p>

<p>You may not approve, but I thought it was fine.</p>

<p>Please don't accuse him of being a Nazi sympathizer.</p>

<p>And I'm still puzzled about why a thread about problems at Swarthmore (fabricated by someone not in the know -- problems that I agree, don't exist) has turned into a thread resurrecting an incident at Williams now over a year old. I don't say you can't, all's kosher on boards, but I find it curious.</p>

<p>As to my participation, well this has turned into a Williams free-for-all, so I certainly think I belong here.</p>

<p>There have been so many assumptions made by posters who don't understand Williams culture, its values, or my values that my head is reeling.</p>

<p>I have been called a Nazi sympathizer longing for Hitler's return. Morty Shapiro has now been called hamstrung. These conclusions are not accurate in the least.</p>

144

<p>"I have been called a Nazi sympathizer longing for Hitler's return."</p>

<p>Not true. </p>

<p>"Of course the vast majority of the students -- and parents -- thought hanging the posters was idiotic and boneheaded (which I also indicated in the post you subsequently twisted to serve your sanctimonious purposes)."</p>

<p>There was actually very little outcry and Julia Condray, who allowed her older, nonWilliams boyfriend to freely roam through several dorms and put up Hitler sympathizing posters with her, not only had no school reprecussions (except support from her Williams friends), but also openly refused to apologize because she didn't feel she had done anything wrong. She wrote an editorial in the Williams newspaper flaunting all of her actions and was allowed to get away with it.</p>

<p>However, it seems to me that the Williams parents are the ones who keep returning to this Swarthmore board and bringing up Williams. We were on to a discussion of how hard Swarthmore is vs MIT.</p>

<p>How about taking your concerns/accolades/gripes, etc etc etc to the Williams board? Although, from what you are saying, you want a campus for your children that readily embraces everyone from the Nazi youth to the Ku Klux Klan? But you have kids there, not us!</p>

145

<p>"We're not talking about a community with a lot going on."</p>

<p>Categorically untrue. While you're ogling Williams's happenings, take a gander at the college's Daily Messages and other "calendars"/listings of events -- and ask the students why they're still working on coursework at 2:30 in the morning most nights.</p>

<p>"There was actually very little outcry (...) no school reprecussions"</p>

<p>Also patently untrue. Just take a look at the numerous WSO and EphBlog threads, as well as Record editorials, from April 2007 and you will see how ridiculous your assumptions are. And since posters here are fond of posting excerpts from Williams documents relating to the event, here is the final email issued by the administration about the incident, in which Julia Cordray's actions were characterized as "outrageous speech":</p>

<p>"April 24, 2007
To the Williams Community,</p>

<p>Having had time to consult and reflect on the recent appearance of Hitler posters on the doors of many students, we would like now to give you our fuller sense of the matter.</p>

<p>The posters, which appeared in at least seven dorms, were designed to mimic ones put on student doors and elsewhere earlier in the week raising awareness of the Holocaust.</p>

<p>The student who admitted that she had produced and hung the second posters said that her doing so was intended as a use of her right to provoke discussion about the appropriateness of the first ones.</p>

<p>Williams, like all colleges, needs to grant wide latitude for speech, even speech as repulsive as this, as long as it does not represent verbal assault.</p>

<p>While this second round of posters seems not to rise to the level of verbal assault, it certainly does offend us and all those who value the well-being of our campus community and its members.</p>

<p>Many students who viewed what appeared as a pro-Hitler poster on their door felt threatened -- understandably so, especially so soon after the horror at Virginia Tech. This sense of threat was not limited to Jewish students, though not surprisingly they were the most affected.</p>

<p>Adding to their sense of violation was both the anonymity of the Hitler posters and the degree to which they mimicked the ones for Holocaust remembrance, to the point of replacing the Star of David with a marijuana leaf.</p>

<p>The result was pain and fear for those who felt threatened and deep disappointment for all of us who care about them.</p>

<p>There were many ways to foment discussion that would not have been outrageous, would not have made members of our community feel threatened, and would have resulted in dialogue of a healthier nature.</p>

<p>We understand that some students found the Holocaust posters too strident, especially in their placement on student doors, but the two are not equal. One drew attention to the plight of victims, the other had the understandable effect of making people feel victimized.</p>

<p>The student has said she will address the community about this matter. When she does, we encourage the College community to rise to its highest values -- affirming free speech, to be sure, but also identifying outrageous speech when we encounter it, and caring about the well-being of all community members.</p>

<p>Regards,</p>

<p>Michael Reed
Vice President for Strategic Planning and Institutional Diversity</p>

<p>Nancy Roseman
Dean of the College</p>

<p>Morty Schapiro
President of the College"</p>

146

<p>Nice email.</p>

<p>Is this true though? :

[quote]
Julia Condray, who allowed her older, nonWilliams boyfriend to freely roam through several dorms and put up Hitler sympathizing posters with her, not only had no school repercussions (except support from her Williams friends), but also openly refused to apologize because she didn't feel she had done anything wrong. She wrote an editorial in the Williams newspaper flaunting all of her actions and was allowed to get away with it.<a href="this%20is%20a%20genuine%20question%20-%20I%20really%20don't%20know%20the%20answer,%20and%20I%20am%20curious...">/quote</a></p>

147

<p>For all the blather about "discussion", Morty Shapiro never organized a discussion forum about the events.</p>

<p>Not one member of Morty Shapiro's administration or faculty could be bothered to show up at the very small Jewish students' discussion forum.</p>

<p>And Morty Shapiro never forced Julia Cordray to have the "discussion" she claimed to seek by "inviting" her to meet with the offended Jewish students. Instead, Morty Shapiro allowed her to thumb her nose at the campus community in a series of snotty editorials.</p>

<p>Morty did nothing to remove her 33 year old boyfriend publisher of neo-nazi websites from a private campus.</p>

<p>
[quote]
We understand that some students found the Holocaust posters too strident...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is the key takeaway from Morty Shapiro's letter. He was hamstrung by the sizeable portion of the campus that was offended by the Holocaust Remembrance activity of the Jewish students.</p>

148

<p>"Is this true though?"</p>

<p>Her name is actually Julia Cordray. What was publicized by the college was that Julia used her swipe card to enter several (about six) dorms to put up the posters which her non-student, much older (by several years) "boyfriend" took responsibility for designing (/boasted about?) on his website (which he later took down). The boyfriend, Rob Shvern, it was later revealed from internet "investigations" by students and alums, has a history of pro-Nazi and disruptive behaviors, also in other college environments.</p>

<p>Of course, Ms. Cordray has some friends who accept her "theatrical" stunts. But she is ignored by most of the students.</p>

<p>"was allowed to get away with it."</p>

<p>If by this, it is meant that her right to free speech was upheld: yes, it was.</p>

149

<p>"the sizeable portion of the campus that was offended by the Holocaust Remembrance activity of the Jewish students."</p>

<p>This is so undeniably untrue as to be fantastically laughable. Julia Cordray/(Rob Shvern) was the only one so "offended."</p>

<p>Students discussed the propriety (college policy) and privacy issues of having their own dorm room doors papered with (Holocaust Remembrance Day) posters -- but were not (except for Julia/Rob) specifically opposed to the content of those posters. There was also lively discussion on the WSO boards relating to Hitler's actions.</p>

150

<p>If it's "so undeniably untrue as to be fantasically laughable", then why did Morty Shapiro feel the need to give a shoutout in his letter to the students objecting to the Holocaust Remembrence posters? Are you saying that Morty just dreamed that up?</p>

<p>BTW, the anti-Semitic Hitler posters are hardly an isolated incident in the context of "n-word" incidents involving both students and faculty in three of the last four years.</p>

151

<p>"We understand that some students found the Holocaust posters too strident, especially in their placement on student doors, but the two are not equal." </p>

<p>OK, interesteddad, who exactly were "some students"? Was it a couple? I believe it was a figure of speech used to refer to the actions of Julia (and her boyfriend). And as I noted in post #149, "Students discussed the propriety (college policy) and privacy issues of having their own dorm room doors papered with (Holocaust Remembrance Day) posters -- but were not (except for Julia/Rob) specifically opposed to the content of those posters. There was also lively discussion on the WSO boards relating to Hitler's actions."</p>

<p>And the Hitler posters are, in fact, an "isolated incident," in that ONE STUDENT was involved. A handful of other members of the community (or visitors, like Rob Shvern -- it hasn't been determined since most are incidents occurring on weekends) were involved in the other incidents you refer to. (And the faculty member did not direct the n-word to any individual, but rather used it as a general noun to refer to her own department.) But of course you know all this. It's simply because of your incomprehensible feeling of sanctimony and need to disparage a particular college that drives you as a disgruntled alum to repeatedly post unseemly comments (Groundhog Day, anyone?), as greydad and mythmom among many others have noted. I refuse to engage in any more one-upsmanship with you as you (like others here) twist words and make subtle (and not-so-subtle) innuendo to make yourselves feel oh-so-high and mighty and validate your children's choices of college. Because every college is not the best fit for every student, and as mythmom has noted, Williams parents are happy that Swarthmore parents' children have made the right choice for them. If only those Swarthmore parents would be so gracious in return to those with Williams students -- but here I am certainly being excessively idealistic.</p>

152

<p>onemoremom:</p>

<p>What forum are you posting in?</p>

<p>The only thing I've posted in the Williams forum in a year is local knowledge, such as the mountain passes on the roads to Boston and Albany being treacherous in a snowstorm -- something I have considerable experience with.</p>

<p>The Swarthmore parents are not participating in dire warning threads in the Williams forum. I figure that a Williams prospect is probably smart enough to figure out the pros and cons by themselves.</p>

<p>
[quote]
OK, interesteddad, who exactly were "some students"? Was it a couple?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ask Morty. It's his reference to Williams students who were offended or upset by the Jewish students' rememberence of Holocaust victims. I don't understand it. I thought the Holocaust Rememberence was moving and appropriate.</p>

153

<p>But some people don't want others to post things on their doors. Plain and simple. That's a privacy issue, too.</p>

<p>The culture of Swarthmore and Williams is different. But as onemoremom has pointed out, the Williams parents are admiring and supportive of Swarthmore. We say Viva la differance. The sentiment is not returned and the competitive judgments posted here are the result.</p>

<p>How ironic when values are at stake that understanding and respect are those chosen, but instead condemnation and superiority. Ah well.</p>

<p>There is not point in continuing this dialogue. I think I can I can end this adroitly. Williams is a terrible place and Swarthmore is perfect. Too bad my kid isn't there.</p>

<p>By the way, if he were, I would hope I would be happy enough in his choice to not feel the need to criticize other schools.</p>

<p>As far as I know, I have only said what a wonderful school Swarthmore is. I really believe this. I believe I even discussed Alice Paul at large. I am only posting on this thread because posters felt it necessary to attack Williams on a Swarthmore forum. To my mind, at that point it ceases to be a Swarthmore forum since that is not its subject. You many not agree, but that's the way I see it. Legalism like it's this forum or that disingenuous when Swarthmore is not the subject of the posts.</p>

154

<p>One last set of comments/rebuttals:</p>

<p>"What forum are you posting in?"</p>

<p>Only to clarify/correct some of the many mischaracterizations (most of them intentional and made with transparent intent) presented in this thread. </p>

<p>"The only thing I've posted in the Williams forum in a year"</p>

<p>Not true. You've conveniently forgotten your posts from April and May of 2007 (nine months ago). </p>

<p>"The Swarthmore parents are not participating in dire warning threads in the Williams forum"</p>

<p>The Williams parents are not making/have not made ANY "dire warnings" about Swarthmore by any stretch of anyone's imagination (and the same most asssuredly CANNOT be said for certain Swarthmore parents - most notably a particular disingenuous Williams alum).</p>

<p>"It's his reference to Williams students who were offended or upset by the Jewish students' rememberence of Holocaust victims."</p>

<p>Are you really that daft, or so set against Williams and anyone associated with the college that you failed to comprehend my statements above in post #s 149 and 151: </p>

<p>"We understand that some students found the Holocaust posters too strident, especially in their placement on student doors, but the two are not equal." [April 2007 statement from the Williams administration, including President Schapiro]</p>

<p>"OK, interesteddad, who exactly were 'some students'? Was it a couple? I believe it was a figure of speech used to refer to the actions of Julia (and her boyfriend). And as I noted in post #149, 'Students discussed the propriety (college policy) and privacy issues of having their own dorm room doors papered with (Holocaust Remembrance Day) posters -- but were not (except for Julia/Rob) specifically opposed to the content of those posters. There was also lively discussion on the WSO boards relating to Hitler's actions."</p>

155

<p>I have been hesitant to post for about a week. I've been waiting and watching for this thread to drop down to at least the middle of the page. Please, let's end this. Williams and Swarthmore are both FABULOUS educational institutions. Students would be hard pressed to find a finer undergraduate experience anywhere. (Full disclosure-I have a child who graduated in '07 from Swarthmore, but we looked at both schools and were incredibly impressed with both.) Each college has had incidents of aberrant behavior occur in the past few years. To say that this bad behavior has only involved a TINY percentage of the student population on each campus is an understatement. This thread was started with hearsay, and much of it has continued with hearsay. Yes, of course everyone is entitled to express his/her opinion, but I think we are at the point where this thread does not reflect well on either the Swarthmore or Williams extended family.</p>

156

<p>momof3:</p>

<p>Just to be clear, Swarthmore College has not had annual incidents of racial epithets or anti-semitism "in the past few years". To lump the two schools together in this regard is extremely misleading.</p>

157

<p>Racism and anti-semitism happen everywhere. I refuse to believe that a college exists (in the United States) that ""has not had annual incidents of racial epithets or anti-semitism "in the past few years."" You have no clue what goes on at Swarthmore (or any school for that matter) behind closed doors.</p>

158

<p>The last incident at Swarthmore that made it to the school newspaper was about ten years ago. Contrast to another school that has had racial epithets and anti-semitic poster attacks making it to the level of the school newspaper and an all-campus letter from the Pres. in each of the last five years.</p>

159

<p>Actually, I take that back. Swarthmore did have kind of a racial incident three years ago. An assistant women's basketball coach, during a timeout in a game, told her team that the black players on the opposing team "don't like to play defense".</p>

<p>The next day, the captains of the Swarthmore basketball team (both white, if I recall) went to the athletic director to complain about the racial nature of the coach's remarks (i.e. that black players don't like to play defense). </p>

<p>The assistant coach "resigned" within 24 hours as the athletic department made it immediately and unambiguously clear that such racial bias is unacceptable at Swarthmore College.</p>

<p>So again, I reject any notion that racism and anti-semitism happen at all colleges. They are not a part of the Swarthmore College campus culture.</p>

160

<p>They may not be a part of the general campus culture, but I'm sure that racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-semitic remarks and actions happen behind closed doors...I re-iterate that these actions are unacceptably common across all strata in society.... </p>

<p>Your objectivity has been spiraling downward for some time, so I'm not arguing this point any longer with you. If you want to believe that Swarthmore is a utopia where everyone is respectful, and no racist comments are ever made, I'm not going to stop you.. My main point is that such a place exists no where. Racism, even in subtle forms, is so ubiquitous that many Americans are unable to identify it.</p>

<p>That is all</p>