<p>let me also say that i apologize for assuming more schools made 'cuts' than the number that actually do.</p>
<p>however...cutting students from BFA programs (or...more diplomatically put...asking students to undergo a review in order to advance) is common practice. it happens at emerson. at boston conservatory. to some extent it happens at michigan (regardless of what some people on hear have heard). It happens at UC Santa Barbara...a recent change. and at MANY other schools across the country.</p>
<p>you know that most students know whether or not they are in danger of being cut. we are dealing with classes of only 16 people, samia. </p>
<p>we all knew which...4-6 students were in danger. we all knew 5-7 who had nothing to worry about. </p>
<p>college is not high school. if you feel like you are lagging behind or struggling to grasp concepts...if you are not happy with the roles you get or how you are being treated....it is YOUR responsibility to go to the faculty. they are not babysitters...but teachers. </p>
<p>i understand WHY you feel the way you do. in your position i might feel the same way. however...it is not fair to call a perfectly reasonable practice 'unethical'</p>
<p>NOT fair.</p>
<p>I ALWAYS felt safe and nurtured in that environment...and the threat of cuts simply made me feel like they ACTUALLY cared how good i was. that there was some reward for growing and being talented. It makes you feel like people are really waching you...actually tracking your growth. They dont just accept you...and forget you.</p>
<p>Exactly my point: the classes are small. That makes it even easier for the faculty to give people honest individual evaluations of what they need to do to not be cut. In my class, I was not one of the 4-6 people everyone knew was in danger of being cut. I was the surprise. And I had no warning whatsoever, and nothing to go on other than compliments from both my acting and voice & movement professors on how well I was doing.</p>
<p>At this point, I'm glad I was cut from the U of A, because I now have a chance to go to a school that will be much better for me: the Boston Conservatory. But it's still wrong that they reserve the right to completely surprise people with a rejection letter after they've worked so hard and spent so much money. There should at least be some kind of warning system for the individual - not the entire group. I remember very clearly how vicious the gossip would get every year around cut time, and how that fear would permeate every class and every performance. Fear of that caliber doesn't belong in an educational environment. Even CCM warns their kids on an individual basis. Why can't U of A do the same? Not everyone has the money or the time to go and audition for other schools every year just in case they get cut from their current program.</p>
<p>your leaving and coming back put you on a constant watch...i am not attempting to say that your cut was not a surprise...i was young and new to the school...but i remember hearing that anyone who voluntary took a leave of absence should definitely be worried about getting cut. i do not know why you left...and i am sure there are a number of extremely good reasons...but the faculty has to look out for the program. and students who leave and come back...are threats to leave again. </p>
<p>secondly...and i will say this again...it is YOUR responsibility to find out if you are on the cusp. harold, marsha, brent, dianne, dick...always available and easy to talk with. in my four years observing cuts...only ONE person has been cut that was not thought to be on the 'danger list' and some people dont know they are on it...but they are. </p>
<p>my cousin, by the way, is an 05 graduate at BoCo and they have a cut system as viscious as UA's. so be prepared for that. </p>
<p>Midsummer, by the way, was a teriffic show. one of the reasons i auditioned.</p>
<p>"secondly...and i will say this again...it is YOUR responsibility to find out if you are on the cusp. harold, marsha, brent, dianne, dick...always available and easy to talk with. in my four years observing cuts...only ONE person has been cut that was not thought to be on the 'danger list' and some people dont know they are on it...but they are."</p>
<p>I regularly talked with my professors about my status in the program, and again, I got nothing but good reviews. Especially from Marsha and Dick. That's why I was literally dumbstruck when I read my letter and saw it was not inviting me back. I would go to the professors' offices and ask them how they thought I was doing, dancing around the question of whether or not I was in danger of being cut (because as I remember it, that was a touchy subject and you weren't supposed to outright ask them that) and I never got any hint from either of them that I was in danger.</p>
<p>As for BoCo's cut system, they actually do warn individual students who are in danger of being cut, and according to my friend Halley, who works there, there are never any outright surprises.</p>
<p>BoCo...my cousin was DEFNITELY surprised by some cuts. </p>
<p>I, too (along with almost anyone who works at UA) would also insist that there are no outright surprises. </p>
<p>And you can ask the question, 'am i in danger of being cut?' i know those who have...i know people who have gotten a straight, 'no' answer and a straight 'yes' answer.</p>
<p>In that case, why tell everyone to prepare as if they were going to be cut? And why couldn't they come out and tell me when I would go in to talk with them about it that I was in danger? Why shower me with compliments about how well I'm doing and how great my attitude is? Why even go through the charade of giving me good grades?</p>
<p>Those are rhetorical questions. My point is that there ARE surprises, and they don't warn people. Maybe things have changed, but when I was attending, it was NOT cool to ask a professor outright if you were in danger of being cut. But I certainly asked everything else, and again, I never got an answer that made me think I would ever get cut.</p>
<p>Gah ... And to think I almost sent in a video audition last year because that National Merit full ride was awfully tempting ... and classical acting is totally my thing.</p>
<p>You're right that as written, the UA "review policy" isn't all that much different than some of the other schools. I remember seeing it last year and it seemed fairly innocuous. As you and others have described it, however, it is much different in practice than all I know except DePaul and even theirs doesn't involve transfers. Even CCM has backed off on their cut system some because they were losing out on a lot of talent to other programs that don't engage in this silliness. I agree completely with Samia that it is unethical and completely unreasonable and I'll add that I think it ought to be illegal. I imagine it will be found to be counterproductive in the long run and will have to be done away with if the program is to survive because I don't see how anybody in their right mind would even bother to apply after reading here unless they were in-state and/or it was the only place they could afford. These discussions do come up pretty high in Google searches, ya know. It's great that forums like this exist so that any buyer who has done his/her research may beware.</p>
<p>most talented young people want to go to a program where they will be tested against a high bar. </p>
<p>ua's program is ever growing in prestige...and opportunities like the one CBS gave the school by choosing it along side some of the elite schools in america to be featured on The Early Show will be viewed by FAR MORE people than a few posts written by people who were cut.</p>
<p>the cut system is really not terribly tough at UA. we are talking about 5 or 6 people most years.</p>
<p>look...obviously there are people who just don't like programs that make cuts. that is your prerogative. </p>
<p>UA's program worked for me. i loved it. my friends and peers loved it. we had a blast. the program is in good shape...it is starting to get more and more recognition on a national level.</p>
<p>i hope they don't change. but i understand why others wish they would.</p>
<p>"this should not be a personal attack forum...so i think this should go back to a focus on UA as an entire program and not YOUR surprise cut. </p>
<p>in my experience...people who are cut often think they were a surprise.</p>
<p>people who arent cut...often knew exactly who would be cut. "</p>
<p>I haven't been attacking anyone personally - I have been attacking what I see as an unethical practice by a university that I have had first-hand experience with.</p>
<p>On the other hand, just within the statements I've copied and pasted above, you have been attacking me personally - my credibility, my character, my maturity level. I actually think U of A was right to cut me - I wasn't right for their program, mostly because I didn't particularly <em>like</em> their program, and there was at least one professor who I found to be incredibly abusive to students in classes and rehearsals (you know who I mean...) But I find an enormous amount of fault with their lack of an individual warning system. Also, the faculty did not tell me I was cut because I was a bad fit for the program - they told me it was because I was an incompetent actor. </p>
<p>The head of the department at BoCo offered me admission as a transfer on the spot in my audition - I don't think that happens to incompetent actors.</p>
<p>Okay, I'm all done on this subject. All I'm trying to do is give people the details of <em>my</em> experience with this particular school, so they don't get a one-sided view of things. There are some professors at the U of A who I think are absolutely brilliant and wonderful, and Marsha Bagwell is one of them. She has posted on this board recently. Anyone who has the opportunity to study with her should consider themselves blessed, and I know I do. But there are other aspects of the program that are very scary and perhaps not worth the risk. I'm just trying to tell my story, and I would very much appreciate it, Goldyfiftyone, if you wouldn't continue to attack my personal character in your efforts to make your school look good.</p>
<p>When estimating how much a school makes on ticket sales, one also must figure out the cost of putting on the production and subtract those numbers. Goldfiftyone, does the school/students sell ads to go into the programs? Perhaps that adds to the revenues. I, too, find it odd that a state University-based theater ensemble would have to count on ticket sales as its main means of support. But that is not the reason I started posting on this thread. I started posting because I am still struggling with the notion of cuts that are done not mainly to weed out slackers and those who are not giving their all to a program, but to allow into the program others who want to come in part way through that program. Of course, it is U of Arizona's right to conduct its program in any way it sees fit, and as a program struggling to make a name for itself with the big boys and girls :), perhaps they feel it is worth it.</p>
<p>Almost ALL schools with prestigious BFA programs have cut policies that function EXACTLY like UA's. The only difference is that this year A LOT of folks got cut. I do not know to what to attribute that. But it is usually a very small number. On par (or LOWER) than the number cut at similar schools.</p>
<p>Me again: That is not true. To my understanding, most BFA programs do weed out students who fail to show up for class, don't do the work and/or are disruptive. Most school (I believe) also have jury evaluations each semester or each year. But according to Doctorjohn, who has been a frequent visitor to this forum and has provided invaluable information (and always in such a nice way, which we all appreciate! :)), most schools did away with "cut" policies years ago. I believe he said something about this in the little narrative he wrote about juries and cuts that is available somewhere on this forum. Maybe I can find it.</p>
<p>While reading this very passionate thread (by the way, for what it's worth, it's great that people can openly debate and keep the level of discourse civil :)) another question occurred to the curious NMR:</p>
<p>How can a student actor relax and do his or her best work in an atmosphere where everyone knows that he or she may be cut at some point, not for failure to attend class or for being disruptive/argumentative/uncooperative? Performing -- putting yourself out there, body and soul -- must be very tough in the best of circumstances.</p>
<p>But putting yourself out there, body and soul, in an atmosphere where one feels a constant tension and threat that they might be cut to allow someone better to take their place, well, how do you do it?</p>
<p>Certainly, in the real world (but universities are not the real world, they are places of higher learning) actors must prepare to be rejected at each and every audition, and perhaps even replaced in a role obtained if he or she fails to perform to expectation. That's the nature of the beast.</p>
<p>But it seems to me (and yes, I am only the parent of a young actor) that college is the place where you not only are challenged to be the best artist you can be, but also where you are in an environment that nurtures that by helping you relax so you can (metaphorically speaking) spread your wings and fly. It's hard to take chances if you are on edge, and isn't acting all about taking chances?</p>
<p>One of the things I like most about the arts hs my D attends is that they strike what seems to me the ideal balance between challenging the kids and helping along the formation of a close-knit ensemble, where the kids feel they can take chances. Taking chances means trying something new, and risking making a fool of yourself. It also can mean hitting the mark perfectly! According to my D's teachers, that risk taking is essential to actor development. But it would be really tough to take chances if you feel as if one or two stumbles in the wrong direction will get you the boot. You have to feel trust to take chances.</p>
<p>Goldyfiftyone wrote: "One of my best friends was cut from the program years ago and upon asking the faculty 'why' he was told that he was very gifted and they felt like his voice/look was more suited for film than the classical stage." </p>
<p>I wish I knew how to make those really cool quotes like fishbowl does. Maybe she'll teach me . . . .</p>
<p>ANYWAY, this quote confuses me. Is the "classical stage" the same thing as musical theatre? When I hear that term, in my ever-expanding ignorance, I think of Hamlet and Lysistrata. I understand the relevance of great acting to musical theatre performing, but I'm not sure I've really SEEN that many MT performers where the performers were thoroughly trained in that sort of classical acting. Can somebody explain for me what "classical stage" means and how it pertains to the acting training for MUSICAL THEATRE at U of Arizona. When we were there for their audition this year, they played a video of one of their Shakespeare productions (it may have been Hamlet--can't remember) and really seemed to stress this aspect of their program. </p>
<p>For some reason, all this classical focus I've heard attached to UA about their program seems counter-productive in some way to MT training. But I probably just don't understand. I don't get that feeling when I hear Webster or Ithaca described more this way. But maybe it's because I know that voice and dance at UA are not given the attention they deserve for an MT program--this is evident by the curriculum. </p>
<p>[I know this belongs on the ASU vs. UA thread, but ASU is not really an MT program. It's a VP program focused on MT. It has virtually no acting or dance classes. Really examine the curriculum and then ask questions about the handful of acting and dance classes on the course list.]</p>
<p>Also, it seems like Goldyfiftyone is saying that somebody was cut because of his VOICE and his LOOK. Surely they knew those things when they accepted him to the program. How can somebody help their VOICE and their LOOK? If I was cut for my VOICE and my LOOK, I think I'd freak out both because they already knew what they were getting and because it was something out of my control.</p>
<p>"Also, it seems like Goldyfiftyone is saying that somebody was cut because of his VOICE and his LOOK. Surely they knew those things when they accepted him to the program. How can somebody help their VOICE and their LOOK? If I was cut for my VOICE and my LOOK, I think I'd freak out both because they already knew what they were getting and because it was something out of my control."</p>
<p>Ding ding ding! Give mtmommy a gold star!!! Exactly. </p>
<p>Also, thank you Samia AND Goldyfiftyone for your very different perspectives. What I find interesting here is that you both are giving the same account of what has happened but just have different opinions about whether it it is fair or not. Most of the people reading here are grown-ups and I think we can all think for ourselves whether or not we would want to put our kids in that type of educational environment.</p>