<p>DD is a junior ChemE major at a top engineering school. She still has a 4.0 GPA, has had internships including industry research, and holds a campus research position. She could get very good letters of rec. The plan was always to get an advanced degree. Whether that be a masters or PhD was yet to be determined. </p>
<p>Well....she went to a meeting about grad school on campus. She was advised against getting a masters in ChemE (by a ChemE professor)! Apparently he told her that it would be a waste of her time; that she could get the very same jobs with a BS in ChemE and the salary difference between the two would be negligible. Not so with a PhD. That, he said is worth it. But DD now says she does not like research and does not want to spend 4 or 5 yrs doing the research necessary for the PhD. (Though DD does admit that it may just be the particular project she is working on that makes her not like research, but she's not sure.)</p>
<p>I feel like my balloon has been deflated. DD is brilliant. She is totally capable of getting an advanced degree and also to have someone else pay for it. I want her to get it right after her undergrad before life gets in the way and makes returning to school too hard. Not to mention, I would imagine funding would be harder to come by later on.</p>
<p>I can't fathom a representative of an educational institution recommending against further education. But DD is taking the man at his word and is saying no to grad school. </p>
<p>The Council of Graduate Schools has a publication that shows that the greatest jump in income is from a Bachelors to a Masters The Ph.D. does not add that much to income. I tend to agree with this as a Ph.D. is at least a 6 year proposition and while you don’t have to go into debt for it, you will not earn what you might be earning in the workplace and that income is lost forever (I know, I have one and to make things worse, I have stayed in the university environment as a professor).</p>
<p>This means that doing a Ph.D. is not something to do for income but for passion. Clearly if DD is not excited about this, she should not go for it now. I would even argue that a Masters is a bad idea unless you are convinced that it is the right thing to do.</p>
<p>it sounds to me like she needs to just go out and work for a while. many employers will pay for their employees to get a Masters and they will reimburse the expenses. If she feels something is missing, then she can make the financial sacrifice and go for the Ph.D. later. There is nothing worse than being in a graduate program without the certainty that it is the right thing to be doing.</p>
<p>She should take the professor’s advice with a grain of salt - most professors have a relatively slim and slanted understanding of industry past the first few years. I cannot speak specifically for ChemE (I am an EE), but in my experience a research-based masters degree IS worth 2-3 years of time. </p>
<p>This gets a little complicated because the results are not immediately obvious - the professor is correct that an engineer with a BS and 2-3 years of work experience will often make about the same (or even slightly more) than an engineer with an MS and no experience. On the surface, this means that the 2-3 years it takes to GET the masters are simply a waste of time and money - why spend that time getting a degree and (if you are lucky) a small stipend when you can be earning an engineering salary?</p>
<p>The answer comes when you look at the educational backgrounds of more senior engineers. Engineers generally fall into one of four categories: (1) BS only, (2) non-research MS (often part-time while employed), (3) research MS, and (4) PhD. At the lowest levels, the demographics show 1>2>3>4 (that is to say, more with just a BS than anything else). At the highest levels, those numbers reverse and you see 4>3>2>1 as the upper tier is dominated by PhD’s and those with research-based MS degrees.</p>
<p>The point of all this is that while there is little advantage in the first few years to the research-based MS, over time the greater depth of education leads to a higher level of skill, which in turn makes promotions easier. It is certainly possible to reach higher levels as an engineer with just a BS, but it is much easier to do so with a quality graduate degree. In my company, I cannot think of any top-tier engineers with only a BS, only one with a non-research MS, and most of the rest with a PhD.</p>
<p>Now, she certainly does not need to get the degree NOW, but as someone who returned from industry to get a graduate degree I can state categorically that waiting is less pleasant. Once you have financial, professional, and social commitments it is much harder to make such a dramatic change, and unfortunately quality part-time, research-based graduate degrees are very rare and often less desirable than simply going full-time.</p>
<p>Why should she get an MS ChemE? Is it just to have an advanced degree? If that’s the case, go for it.</p>
<p>But if you look at it objectively, an MS ChemE from the same school makes very little difference. The same companies hire MS ChemE’s and BS ChemE’s and put them in very similar positions. An MS ChemE is usually hired at the equivalent salary of a BS ChemE + 1 to 2 years of experience (but consider that the MS takes 1 to 2 years). Meanwhile, she paid for tuition (or a portion of it - it’s often hard to come by a fellowship as just an MS student) and she lost 2 years of salary. So financially it doesn’t make sense.</p>
<p>Also, funding an MS after starting work is usually easier. Most employers pay for MS degrees at night while working. There are many good schools (including Top 10 schools) that offer night programs, either locally or distance learning.</p>
<p>If she’s absolutely dead-set on an advanced degree, I would first recommend that she look at a different school. A different school will expand her opportunities in the field, introduce her to new faculty and students, and will allow her to expand her networking base and career options (she’ll have 2 career services departments to use to find a position after graduation). Also, I would tell her to start as a PhD student, give it a year, then switch to MS-only if she decides it’s not for her. As a PhD student, she’s more likely to get funding and research positions in labs, professors will be more willing to develop her if they think she’ll be around for a while, and she might even have more class options depending on the school.</p>
<p>Note that PhD programs in engineering are typically funded (fellowship, assistantship), so the PhD student would not have to pay tuition and would receive a stipend to cover living expenses. Master’s degree programs may be less likely to be funded, so a student going to graduate school only for a master’s degree is more likely to have to pay (or have it paid for by an outside source like an employer).</p>
<p>She may want to look at job listings for various possible employers and see if any of them have a significant number of job listings that require a master’s degree (as opposed to a bachelor’s degree or a PhD) in chemical engineering.</p>
<p>My husband and I both went straight to grad school out of college (both top students in our colleges) and strongly recommended to our kids that they work for a year or two before going to grad school. We feel we both would have made different decisions if we had worked in industry first. </p>
<p>Our kids (both of whom graduated honors from very good universities) took our advice and got jobs out of college. Son has just completed a masters in a different engineering discipline than he would have taken straight out of school. Our non-engineer daughter is deciding this year if she will go back for a Ph.D. or do an employer financed masters. Again, the Ph.D or masters would be in a different, but related, discipline to what she was thinking of while in school. </p>
<p>Will your daughter be able to take any of the coursework for a masters while she is still an undergrad? My DH actually graduated after 4 years with a bachelors and masters. Whatever she decides, she should take her GREs next year anyway, as well as any available engineering licensing exams (I don’t know if chem E has any, I know my son’s field did and he regrets not taking them when all the math was fresh in his mind, even if he doesn’t really need them.)</p>
<p>Has your daughter worked during the summer in industry to experience a non-academic work environment? If she hasn’t, I would strongly suggest she try to do that this summer. </p>
<p>If she does go to grad school, I would agree with the advice to go for a Ph.D at a school that awards masters along the way. I did start grad school in a Ph.D program (fully funded) and stopped with a masters. Quite a few of my peers did the same, although we all started with the intention of going for the doctorate. </p>
<p>My son was in the process of applying to grad school his senior year as a back-up if he didn’t find a job he wanted. When he was offerred his current job, he stopped the process. If the economy is still bad next year, that might be good advice for your D to follow - to interview fall semester of senior year while applying to grad school. She might fall into a dream job, or alternatively decide that nothing she is offerred is what she really wants to do. </p>
<p>Good luck! It’s sometimes hard to make decisions when the world is filled with such wonderful opportunities!</p>
<p>I agree with parentoftwo, though I have a slightly different take, though I’m an EE. </p>
<p>An advanced degree involves a specialization. While in EE, a MS degree certainly commands a higher salary, I find myself preferring people with a BS unless the MS is specifically in my area, in which case it’s preferable and I’m happy to pay the premium. We pay for employees to get their MS so I think I am better off with an excellent BS candidate who I can guide through a masters program to gain the specialty that I need rather than hire a MS candidate who specialized in something peripheral to my area who I really can’t send back to school because they already have their masters, and I also have to pay more for. </p>
<p>Therefore, I would say the best strategy is to get a position with a BS in an area that you like, learn what you need to learn, excel in the position, and then have the company pay for your MS. This seems like the best of both worlds.</p>
<p>I agree with parentoftwo, though I have a slightly different take, though I’m an EE. </p>
<p>An advanced degree involves a specialization. While in EE, a MS degree certainly commands a higher salary, I find myself preferring people with a BS unless the MS is specifically in my area, in which case it’s preferable and I’m happy to pay the premium. We pay for employees to get their MS so I think I am better off with an excellent BS candidate who I can guide through a masters program to gain the specialty that I need rather than hire a MS candidate who specialized in something peripheral to my area who I really can’t send back to school because they already have their masters, and I also have to pay more for. </p>
<p>Therefore, I would say the best strategy is to get a position with a BS in an area that you like, learn what you need to learn, excel in the position, and then have the company pay for your MS. This seems like the best of both worlds.</p>
<p>I just reviewed this article this morning. Perhaps it will help your daughter in some manner (such as supply and demand):</p>
<p>A Decline in Doctorates</p>
<p>December 5, 2011 - 3:00am
ByDoug Lederman</p>
<p>“The number of research doctorates awarded by American universities in 2010 fell for the first time since 2002, according to data published last month by the National Science Foundation. The drop was driven in large part by a decision to reclassify numerous categories of education doctorates as pre-professional rather than research doctorates, but the number of science and engineering doctorates awarded dipped slightly, too…”</p>
<p>I have to say, i flat out disagree with the analysis of her professor. I know a bunch of PhDs in science and engineering. My brother-in-law has a BS and MS in ChemE, with a PhD in Biochemical Engineering (in Zurich - how’s her German?). He managed to finish his MS in 12 months and his PhD in 24 months, so the total commitment was 3 years.</p>
<p>The job opportunities for him were much greater with the research background. He eventually switched to a job within the company that could have been done with a BS, but they upped his level of responsibility and he has access to top management. His company puts PhDs on a different career track compared to BS ChE employees.</p>
<p>The most compelling reason, to me, is more personal and esoteric. Almost every phD I know says the time spent in a funded position at a university had been the best years of their lives. She would be surrounded by some of the smartest people in the world, doing work in a relatively low stress environment, and still have access to the fun and recreation of being in college. The difference between 37 years and 40 years in industry is negligible, but the difference between 0 grad school and 3 (or 4) years is huge.</p>
<p>If she had a 3.4 from bigstateU then working a year or 2 might make more sense. But a 4.0 from a top program, skip it and shoot for the stars.</p>
<p>1 professor’s opinion is meaningless, especially since their knowledge of industry (and salaries) is usually dated by a decade or so. Nothing wrong with industry work first, but…
the statement that “most employers pay for master’s degrees” has many never mentioned caveats:
A small change in tax laws, and guess what, you’re out of luck. It could be many years before tax law changes back. Or, sure your employer will pay, but it will take years taking classes while working full time… in the meantime you could change employers or bosses that may have different policies. After a few years you may also have a difficult time getting recommendation letters. And what if you are employed in some rural location without a great (or decent) college around?..online degrees don’t usually carry the same weight
What if you are employed in some urban area where after work traffic makes it nearly impossible to get to your employer-designated college? What if you live in the opposite direction from the college your employer is willing to pay for (which makes for a long drive home after class gets out at 9PM and you need to get up for work at 6AM)?
Family obligations, etc. also may make part time education unlikely.
Government contracts often specify numerical quotas for degree types making MS degree holders (experienced or not) more valuable.
After working for several years, to watch as your employer hires a newly minted MS (with no work experience) at the same rate as you are currently paid won’t feel so nice and make you wonder if the advice you took was sound. Other posts by enlightened employers present an opposite scenario, but not all (perhaps most) employers are not so enlightened.</p>
<p>In our ivy Ph.D program, DH and I always felt pressure that we should be in the lab or studying. Everyone worked nights and weekends, especially to get access to equipment. The pressure to get results was real and relentless, not “relatively low stress” for us, although it may have been self-imposed to a large extent. Our dating often consisted of me spending late night hours watching his experiments with him or him spending late night hours watching mine with me. We were both on full rides, but had to count pennies. Once hubby got into the real world and a few years later transferred out of the lab, he was one of the few Ph.D.'s at his company climbing the corporate ladder, and was always climbing with peers that were younger than him by the five years he spent getting his degree. </p>
<p>On the contrary, my working daughter feels she’s been on a year long vacation with nothing but her job on her plate - she has money and freedom and no take-home work for the first time in her life, even though she is being given more and more responsibilities and opportunities in her job. With weekends and evenings free, she can explore hobbies and interests and leverage her vacation time into making quite a few trips all over the country to see friends and new places. Many of her friends are just starting med school after almost all took a year off first to work at jobs that were a tremendous relief from the stress of maintaining high gpas to get into the best schools. Her one problem starting out was finding friends in her new city (meeting people at school is usually easier) and now her problem is finding a group with money and vacation time to go to Europe with her (many of her school friends are humanities majors finding it hard to get a decent job, while others are doing the investment banking 80-hour-a-week-who-goes-on-a-long-vacation bit). She knows that this time of being single and without responsibility is precious and limited - she will be starting grad school next year, and who knows when a relationship will turn serious and lead to marriage. </p>
<p>Although son’s early experiences at work were different than D’s for several reasons, including the fact he has always traveled quite a bit for his job, he loves the traveling both for work and on his own. He enjoys having a new car and not a rambling wreck, and a nice place to live with decent furniture. Four years out of college, he just finished a systems engineering masters (with a thesis) taking one course a semester - it was a neat program since he could stream the classes live or watch them later if he was out of town for a class. He had fun in college, but is having fun as a young, single twenty-something, while he is also thrilled at the amount of responsibility he has in his job and his ability to make a real difference with his work. </p>
<p>For both my kids, I would be surprised if they didn’t look back at these early working years as being among the best of their lives.</p>
<p>I am in software engineering and while there isn’t much to gain as far as obtaining a PHD, there is some worth for obtaining a M.S./M.Eng. Often times, you will see job postings that will say “B.S. plus 12-15 years experience OR M.S. plus 8 years experience”…or something similar. A typical M.S./M.Eng part-time or online program is only 2 years so it is a good investment on saving you additional work experience to qualify for certain jobs.</p>
<p>On top of that…</p>
<p>I have not seen an employer yet who counts the number of years of experience AFTER a degree when applying for a job. That means that you can do something like I did…get a M.S. after about a few years of experience and STILL meet the qualification of “M.S. plus 8 years”.</p>