WashU workload?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington University in St. Louis
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<p>
[QUOTE=urichimaru]

I’m thinking about BME

[/quote]
For all students going into BME who don’t want to deal with the idiocy that is BME 140, I came up with this idea on a whim, so I thought I’d share. Please note that people have expressed doubts about sophomores being allowed to switch their major to BME, so you should make sure they’ll actually let you do this before you try it.</p>

<p>If (and only if) you have tested out of calculus 1 & 2 (i.e., you will be starting with calculus 3 in the fall of freshman year), you should think about:</p>

<ol>
<li>Initially declaring as a **non-BME science major<a href=“biology,%20biochemistry,%20chemistry,%20physics,%20etc.”>/b</a></li>
<li>Taking **Math 233<a href=“i.e.,%20calculus%203”>/b</a>, **Chemistry 111/151<a href=“general%20chemistry/lab”>/b</a>, and **Physics 117 or 197<a href=“general%20physics;%20197%20is%20better,%20but%20difficult%20to%20get%20into%20due%20to%20limited%20seating%20and%20preference%20for%20physics%20majors;%20%5Bb%5Dyou%20might%20want%20to%20declare%20physics%20as%20your%20major%20just%20to%20get%20into%20this%20class%5B/b%5D,%20because%20the%20professors%20for%20117%20are%20horrendously%20bad”>/b</a> first semester</li>
<li>Taking **Math 217<a href=“i.e.,%20differential%20equations”>/b</a>, **Chemistry 112/152<a href=“general%20chemistry/lab”>/b</a>, **Biology 2960<a href=“biology%201”>/b</a>, and **Physics 118 or 198<a href=“have%20to%20take%20118%20if%20you%20took%20117,%20and%20198%20if%20you%20took%20197”>/b</a> second semester</li>
<li>Switching your major to BME sophomore year and taking both **BME 140<a href=“intro%20to%20BME”>/b</a> and **BME 201<a href=“concept%20to%20market”>/b</a> first semester, two totally unrelated classes (at least I think they are; I’m a freshman, so I’ve only taken 140 so far), at the same time.</li>
</ol>

<p>BME 140 is one of the most ridiculous classes you’ll ever take, and for no reason other than that it is meant to make you drop out of BME. In fact, the class becomes exponentially easier after the drop date passes. However, if you have the necessary science and math background, you can circumvent all those troubles.</p>

<p>For example, the first day of class, the professor (Dr. Yin) will do a derivation involving a differential equation. Almost anyone who hadn’t taken differential equations (i.e., almost the entire class), was completely confused. A lot of people saw that and immediately switched to Arts & Sciences.</p>

<p>But with the necessary background, you won’t be intimidated by the basic math & science concepts involved, and will have a very easy time with the class. It almost entirely consists of guest lectures (by WUSTL professors), and they often (especially in the second half of the semester) have little to do with the problem sets, as the guest professors love talking about their research, which is far too complicated to be on an exam, even in BME 140. While Dr. Yin does hold office hours, he is vague at best when answering any questions you have, so prior knowledge is an enormous advantage, particularly since the exams are curved.</p>

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<p>so basically if you’ve taken calculus u should be fine. thats basically what i learned from the post above mine. I was admitted into washu and i plan on doing BME too. Seems like it really depends on what u learned from highschool (kinda). BME is an engineering class. why are there people in BME that don’t know things about differential equations?</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE=mediabob]

so basically if you’ve taken calculus u should be fine.

[/quote]
Not at all. You also need to know differential equations. Concepts such as enzyme kinetics (not in AP Chemistry, IIRC) and Fourier transforms are covered.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=mediabob]

Seems like it really depends on what u learned from highschool (kinda)

[/quote]
What you learned in high school is nowhere near enough. The science classes go into much greater depth than the AP curriculum. That said, a solid foundation is always useful.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=mediabob]

why are there people in BME that don’t know things about differential equations?

[/quote]
Because differential equations is not a standard high school course. The highest level math course available at most high schools is calculus 2 (AP Calculus BC, or the IB equivalent).</p>

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<p>how many credits is each AP class?</p>

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<p>It depends on the test and the score.</p>

<p>For example, no credit is offered for AP Psychology at all but a 5 on the AP Spanish exam (either, if I recall correctly) gives you 6 credits w/o having to take another class.</p>

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<p>18 credits per semester, every semester would be tough (somebody mentioned that a bit earlier right?)… i did that fall of this year (and 1.5 of those credits were pretty weak) and it was definitely tough to keep up with. Which is not to say i won’t do it again, but still. I’m not in BME though.</p>

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<p>The point of BME 401 is not to scare off freshmen with math that you haven’t yet learned. It’s meant to introduce you to the type of problems and applications that you’ll come across later in your BME career. As (amazingly) difficult as that class was, putting it off until sophomore year isn’t worth it. Most students don’t have a good feel for BME going into college, and this gives a much better idea. If you wait until sophomore year, and it turns out you’re not interested, you’re behind on whatever other major you end up switching to.<br>
In my opinion, if you’re getting into engineering, you should be prepared for advanced math to be thrown at you. If a couple differential equations are enough to make you switch to ArtSci, then engineering might not have been the right choice to begin with.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>false.
there will be three sections of 197 next year, so it will be easy to get into.</p>

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<p>three sections of physics 197 next year? that’s a good move i think… Do you know who’s teaching them? Is there a third teacher now, or is it still Dr. Trousil and Dr. Bernatowitz?</p>

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<p>The current sections are being kept the same (same teachers and times), but they’re adding a 1pm taught by Bernatowitz.</p>

<p>Apparently they may be phasing out 117/118 entirely over the next few years, which is great since those classes are taught terribly.</p>

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<p>yeah, it seems like most people I’ve talked to wished they’d taken 197/198 instead…</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

The point of BME 401 is not to scare off freshmen with math that you haven’t yet learned.

[/quote]
I have to disagree with this. That is exactly the point of 140. Why else would the difficulty of the class dramatically drop immediately after the deadline for the withdraw date passes?</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is that BME 140 is a weed-out class. It is meant to see who really wants to do BME, which has the unfortunate side effect of causing those who a low tolerance level for that kind of bullshıt to switch to another major.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

It’s meant to introduce you to the type of problems and applications that you’ll come across later in your BME career.

[/quote]

There is no point in “introducing” people to ideas that they don’t have the scientific and mathematical foundation to fully grasp.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

Most students don’t have a good feel for BME going into college, and this gives a much better idea.

[/quote]
I don’t think it gave me a good feel for BME at all. I learned almost nothing of value in 140. The entire class was taught in a horrid manner. The lectures covered little to no theory in a coherent fashion, and unless you were in a PST (mine consisted of a sophomore who didn’t understand the material any better than we did allowing us to copy his problem set solutions verbatim), you were basically left out to dry, save for any help you could get from other students. Were it not for a lot of interest in the field and the ability tolerate the meaninglessness of 140, I would not have stayed with BME.</p>

<p>You don’t get a “much better idea” of BME by listening to professors ramble on about their research. You get a good idea by having the fundamental theory behind BME taught to you in a concise and cogent manner, as is done for all the other majors.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

In my opinion, if you’re getting into engineering, you should be prepared for advanced math to be thrown at you. If a couple differential equations are enough to make you switch to ArtSci, then engineering might not have been the right choice to begin with.

[/quote]
That is nonsensical. The desire to learn material in an order that allows the current topics to build on prior topics does not make one a potentially poor engineer.</p>

<p>There is a reason that one learns algebra before calculus; calculus requires knowledge and skills taught in algebra. BME is no different in this regard.</p>

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<p>Yes, the size of BME 140 drops after the deadline, that says nothing about the reasons students had for dropping the course. Of course it’s a weed-out class. It’s difficult, the math, the concepts, and the applications are all new. It’s also an intro course. Easy to register for first semester to see if BME is something interesting. Not everyone comes to WU with their mind set on a certain engineering discipline, and how else would you find out?</p>

<p>I’m sure lots of students drop out due to frustration. But I also know many that decided BME just wasn’t for them. Call it what you like.</p>

<p>What would you propose as better course material? Yes, there’s not a lot of help from the professor. Yes, the math is difficult at that point. I’m not sure exactly what “fundamental theory of BME” you could teach to a freshman and expect them to have the appropriate background to easily understand. BME fundamentals aren’t BME at all, they’re from all the intro ME, EE, ChE courses that you won’t get until soph and junior years. Without the math, it’s just biology.</p>

<p>Of course it makes sense to learn fundamental math/calculus/etc in order… but that’s an undergraduate curriculum, not the real world. As soon as you specialize, take courses in another engineering major, take a graduate level course, or get a job, you’ll come across problems that you don’t have the right background to solve - and you have to solve them anyway. In my opinion, one of the biggest problems with any undergraduate BME curriculum is that you can only take a few courses in each engineering field… and you’ll definitely need to know more than you had time for. It’s not that different in BME140… it shouldn’t be expected of you to learn diffeq just for the problem set, but they do try to teach you some concepts. </p>

<p>I’m not saying BME140 is a great class or that it doesn’t need improvements. Dr. Yin isn’t exactly known for taking time for undergrads, and the homework isn’t easy. But avoiding the course freshman year only to find out sophomore year that you aren’t interested in BME is a bigger waste of time.</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

Yes, the size of BME 140 drops after the deadline, that says nothing about the reasons students had for dropping the course.

[/quote]
I didn’t say anything about the change in the size of the class after the deadline. I said that the class gets easier after the deadline. That is intentional, and a result of the class being unnecessarily difficult prior to the deadline, so as to get people to drop out.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

Of course it’s a weed-out class.

[/quote]
And you are OK with the type of students that are weeded out as a result of the course’s structure? Many bright and intelligent students have switched majors because they don’t want to play Dr. Yin’s little game. The BME department is losing a lot of potentially outstanding students because of his antics. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t sit well with me.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

I’m sure lots of students drop out due to frustration. But I also know many that decided BME just wasn’t for them.

[/quote]
This isn’t about semantics. If the class were structured properly, the only ones dropping out would be those who truly decided BME just wasn’t for them.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

I’m not sure exactly what “fundamental theory of BME” you could teach to a freshman and expect them to have the appropriate background to easily understand.

[/quote]
That’s precisely my point; freshman don’t have the necessary math & science background to understand the underlying concepts.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

Without the math, it’s just biology.

[/quote]
Sounds good to me for a freshman intro class. Everyone knows the math will be difficult; it is to be expected. If they cannot do well in classes such as physics and calculus, then they will be forced to drop out of BME anyway, due to those classes being requirements for the BME major.</p>

<p>I think that one can grasp BME enough to know whether it’s right for them without getting too involved in the math & science. After all, that is what was done during the second half of the semester, wasn’t it? Basic math concepts such as statistics and basic science concepts such as DNA translation were what made up the homework assignments. With some time spent in class to actually cover those topics, it would be possible to go into even greater depth.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=laurezer]

Dr. Yin isn’t exactly known for taking time for undergrads

[/quote]
Then he shoudn’t be teaching the class. He is the department chair, and I’m aware he has many duties more important than teaching undergrads. He should find someone who does have the time to teach the class instead. Even a graduate student willing to put in the time would be better than him doing almost nothing.</p>

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<p>This is ridiculous - no one in this thread cares about BME140 anyway. Good luck in the rest of your BME courses.</p>

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<p>how do you know which APs count?</p>

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<p>Its all on the WashU site, I believe on College of Arts and Sciences website. Details for each score for each AP course.</p>

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<p>I, for one, found this discussion fascinating! My D was a BME major for a day- and it was that intro class that threw her for a complete loop.</p>

<p>She called home after the first day of classes saying “umm… BME is not what I thought it was… I am going to switch my major.” She felt like she was totally unprepared for the math and other incomprehensible (to her) concepts they threw at her that first day in a way that implied to her that everyone else already knew this stuff, should already know this stuff, or better learn it quick!</p>

<p>After reading this thread I agree with Hirako that it is too bad the course is geared such that it scares so many otherwise totally qualified students away. I believe my D would have made a great BME.</p>

<p>RE AP Scores: Arts & Sciences: <a href=“http://college.artsci.wustl.edu/placement-and-credit[/url]”>http://college.artsci.wustl.edu/placement-and-credit&lt;/a&gt;
Engineering: <a href=“http://engineering.wustl.edu/Resources/Registrar/AdvancedPlacementInformation.asp[/url]”>http://engineering.wustl.edu/Resources/Registrar/AdvancedPlacementInformation.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>But given what this thread was supposed to be about, if people want to talk about this situation regarding BME in particular, they should start a new thread.</p>

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<p>Can someone summarize or talk about what subjects are covered in this intro BME class?
It’s not very clear in the course book or from any other descriptions what the class covers. A combination of math/biology/physics?</p>

<p>Would Calculus 3 be good enough of a background to not have too much trouble?</p>