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It's like, women are always offended by something or another.</p>
<p>What's confusing to me is, if women are offended anyway, why do we spend so much time trying to make sure they aren't?
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<p>I hate the irony but...I find that pretty offensive.</p>
<p>MallomarCookie: why is that offensive to you? (btw i couldn't help laugh at your post at first, the irony is funny)</p>
<p>The idea that women are "always offended." Jeez! All women are not b*tches all the time...the idea that women are constantly looking for something to get ticked off about is offensive to me. It's just not nice.
Why just women, anyway? Men complain too, and, oftentimes, rightfully so.</p>
<p>Yeah, I've met more chauvi-nazi (or mascu-nazis, whatever) in the past few months than femi-nazis.</p>
<p>Just throwing some data out there:
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-table21-2005.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-table21-2005.pdf</a>
This report shows that men on average work 6 hrs more than women.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat46.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat46.pdf</a>
This report shows that women on average take twice as much more time off work than men.</p>
<p>As an employer, I' definitely want someone who works more hrs and doesn't take a lot of time off.</p>
<p>Also women don't like to negotiate as men when it comes to salary (go down to the The Art of the Ask table):
<a href="http://www.womenwork.org/career/careercenter/Getting_Hired/salary.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.womenwork.org/career/careercenter/Getting_Hired/salary.htm</a></p>
<p>Generally if you negotiate your salary you will get a higher salary.</p>
<p>this applies to not just gender but also race</p>
<p>people say "White boys can't jump" or "White boys can't dance" all the time, but if someone hears you say "Black boys can't do math" you can expect to get the $#!+ kicked out of your @$$</p>
<p>wanted to also say that generally people who are taller are far more likely to achieve success in the work force than those people who are shorter. i guess you can call it height-ism. anyways, men tend to be taller than women on average.</p>
<p>to those who think women are too sensative or whatever:</p>
<p>how do you want your sister, grandma, mother, child to be treated, and act accordingly</p>
<p>and if you think women don't work as hard or can't gee, go look at WW2...</p>
<p>and I have found that people that are taller rely on their height and act better though they often are not</p>
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[quote]
Just throwing some data out there:
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-table21-2005.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-table21-2005.pdf</a>
This report shows that men on average work 6 hrs more than women.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat46.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat46.pdf</a>
This report shows that women on average take twice as much more time off work than men.
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<p>Well, yeah. That's expected, considering that a) men can't have children (maternity leave = more time off) and b) many men still consider themselves the traditional "breadwinner" of the family (more hours = more money to bring home; women still considered main "caretaker of the home" --> less hours at work). </p>
<p>Understand the fundamentals: women and men are NOT the same (this is a biological truth). This doesn't mean that they can't be <em>equal</em> - the equality just in accordance with how they are different.
sidenote: Not every woman is the contemporary embodiment of a feminist ("femi-nazi") or a docile person stuck in the backwards "traditional" role of women in society.</p>
<p>MallomarCookie: I haven't found a study on that. Although you bring up a good point. I would say on average someone who workers more hours and doesn't take many off days will be more productive than someone who works less hours and takes a lot of days off. You will have those anomalies, people who don't work as many hours and take more days off but they outproduce those who do the opposite (work more hrs, take less days off). That's just my theory on things.</p>
<p>jadex: I already realize women and men are not equal (biologically speaking). I do believe in equal opportunity though. But from a business perspective I think it just makes sense that there is an gender income disparity , although I don't think it should be as huge as it is today.</p>
<p>Going back to the reports that I posted, I'll make an example.</p>
<p>Two people start working at the same time and get the same starting salary. After a year of work in the company, Person A worked more hours than Person B. The employer sees this and gives Person A a higher raise than Person B. The next year, Person B has to take an extended period of time off. The employer is still paying Person B. When the third year is about to start and the employer is about to give raises out again he doesn't give much of a raise to Person B because Person B was out for a good amount of time. Person A continues to get a nice raise because of the amount of time worked over the year. Person A and B are both men. From an employer's perspective, Person B needs to earn his raise and that can only be done while working. If the reasons are justified I will give you time off and pay you because it isn't right to lay you off if your going through a tough time, but don't expect a raise when you come back either.</p>
<p>It still is an incredibly lame argument. The drop in salary has actually been shown not to be caused by maternity leave. Most women who can take time off and go back to work full-time earn more in the first place. Any drop in salary they might experience would not pull the average down. (<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/22/AR2006042200134.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/22/AR2006042200134.html</a>)</p>
<p>Check out <a href="http://www.wageproject.org%5B/url%5D">www.wageproject.org</a> and see how your salary (being a woman) can be compared to men in your area.</p>
<p>Oh, and what is strange about the label of femi-nazi is most of these women only want a modern feminine role and EQUALITY--while chauvi-nazis want to see women take a traditional role and be UNEQUAL (workforce)</p>
<p>Care to give reasons as to why it's a lame argument?</p>
<p>yeah i pressed enter too early thats why it only said that before</p>
<p>BP, I believe it's a little more complicated than your example belies. My "understanding the fundamentals" comment wasn't really aimed at you but at the general public. Still, your example misses what I was getting at - not equal opportunity, but equality in pay for same <em>caliber</em> of work. Even without considering biological differences, that equality isn't happing now, and it doesn't make sense, not even in a business setting. I'm not entirely sure, as my background is in science and not in business, but I would think economically speaking a company will reward whatever gets them the biggest, fastest bottom line. So, even if a woman at an office works less hours than a man in the same office, if she gets just as much done as the man - AND in less hours - I'd pay her more; she's more productive. </p>
<p>And if she's got to go on maternity leave, let her go with pay. It'd be the same as if an employee went on an extended medical leave. When she comes back and if she works just as hard, she gets a proportional raise. If she doesn't, she won't get a promotional raise (if the company is giving raises across the board to accomodate cost of living increases, everyone's entitled to them), but she'll just have to work longer/harder, like you suggest. Increasingly buisnesses offer spousal maternity leave as well (if you're a man and your wife is pregnant, you can get time off with pay, too). </p>
<p>In conclusion: I can't support different pay for each gender for the same amount of work. Regardless of timing or time off, if the same amount of work gets done, shouldn't that be rewarded?</p>
<p>How absences from work are treated is not a natural condition but is rooted in policy choices.</p>
<p>The US is one of the few industrialized countries to lack paid family leave. These are covered by the government and allow new mothers and fathers to take time out from work after having/adopting a child. The US law only guarantees 12 weeks of unpaid leave, which parents cannot afford to take. Women with good health coverage may get 6 weeks of paid leave after having a child, which is under the disability coverage. When I've talked to people from other industrialized countries, they are amazed that such a wealthy country as the US doesn't have paid family leave (and no national health coverage). Pretty much all the wealthy countries of the world have those policies.</p>
<p>Yes, I do not know why he thought it was okay to say that there SHOULD be a gender disparity in pay? How come that is acceptable--but it is not acceptable to say that there should be a difference in pay between races (and their undeniable differences)?</p>
<p>These message boards are so filled with messages from people questioning gender roles, and in most cases, it's a guy complaining. What, was there an article about how cool chauvi-nazism is in Boys' Life magazine December 2006?</p>
<p>I feel like my friends are pretty much equal opportunity offenders and I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't feel like most people I know tiptoe around women or anything, nor do I feel like men have it very hard in the society I know.</p>
<p>Jadex, how in the world do you come to the conclusion that women get more done in the office in less time? That would be a legitimate argument...if there was a shred of evidence to prove it. I am totally dumbfounded. You just magically came up with this claim that is entirely bogus, but you're acting like its actually true and using it as such.</p>
<p>No wonder you're dumbfounded, magicmonkey, because <em>nowhere</em> did I say that that particular fact was true. The example I used was hypothetical and in response to BP's example. You should read closer. Let's try it again:</p>
<p>IF a woman works in an office and (according to the article BP posted) she works less hours on average than a man does, IF she gets just as much or more work done (she is just as or more PRODUCTIVE), then she should get the same pay as a man who works longer, but does the <em>same</em> amount of work. </p>
<p>Conclusively, I am talking about equality of pay based on productivity.</p>